A plea for mages

[Archangel721]

@ligma1

I literally offered you advice on how to get better, while all you are doing here is just regurgitating words from other mages who are dying to spears no less.

I hate double posting… but I need to reply to this.

You did try to help me in DMs. You assumed I was new to the game and tried to explain obvious mechanics. Decent advice was given of course. Trading out oblivion for orb seems like a decent PvP decision that I will try. I do want to figure out how not to suck with flamethrower, but I legitimately get smacked every time I light it up, and that is on me.

I take great offense to the idea that I’m regurgitating anything. Everything I’ve said in this thread is my personal experience. That it sounds like other people’s personal experience should be an indicator not that I just want to complain or win through buffs/nerfs, but that there is a perspective that a play style this game created may not be working right. It is always possible I suck and I’m wrong… Probably the 4th or 5th time I’ve said so and I’m not saying it sarcastically. However, the empirical and observable experience of mages in M10s is that they are often excluded form high level dungeons. Stop bitching about my bad PvP. Lets just say I’m terrible at it. As I said in my original post… I’ve literally given up on PvP and rely 0% on it for any enjoyment I take from this game. OPR and 3v3 and War (and invasions for that matter) could be completely extracted from NW and my mood would not change at all. The fact that NW has balanced things in such a way that an entire class of weapons is biased against such that they’re rejected from or kicked form groups is a problem I think worth of notifying AGS about. Take your sanctimonious and condescending attitude and the constant redirection to a useless conversation about PvP somewhere else.

[Magestic]

Wanna hear something that will make you depressed even more?

Great Axe’s Gravity Well has further REACH and better ROOT effects, ROOT PERKS compared to Void Gauntlent Psychic Scream. How does it make sense that the void gauntlet does no damage and struggles to even reach opponents.

This idea the developers had about the VOID GAUNTLET VOID BLADE → was an absolute tragedy as they clearly forgot how much passion and care they put into the melee weapons. Melee weapons have so very very many different affixes, perks, bleeds, effects, etc… so the idea of having a MAGE have a melee weapon that doesn’t give ANY of these such benefits is like sending the mage into the wolves essentially, where they are out powered, out numbered, etc.

The Ice Gauntlet on the other hand is hilarious. Ask any of your friends on their idea of a ‘frost weapon’. I guarantee you’re most likely going to hear something about “freezing the opponent” , but yet the FROST GAUNTLET has ZERO FREEZE abilities. And for those of you who dare to say ‘what about the ice shower!’, I remind you that its a 4 pillar ice column that is casted 1 feet from where u stand… this is basically a last chance oh shit please get off me type of spell where melee have tons of movement effects to walk around this impotent ability. But then… you say… what about the frost gauntlet heavy attack on an opponent within the ice storm that freezes the opponent , well then good sir I recommend you attempt such practice on an opponent in battle and see how well it goes for you. It is a complete joke! Opponents can dodge once or twice out of your ice storm and on top of that , the heavy attack on frost gauntlet is a 2 second wind-up with a less than 1 second root affect applied if you’re lucky enough to hit it in the time ice storm radius.

They don’t care about mages and the proof is in the pudding… melee having so much more movement, the stronger spells, melee swings that stun and then give them a massive damage amplifier. Meanwhile all the mage weapon LIGHT AND HEAVY attacks are like throwing wads of paper at a brick wall…

[Invis]

It is idealism.

Effort does/should not equate to results, effort alone is not enough. Your teachers lied to you.

Your example is the perfect example to illustrate my point.

There is a major skill difference, nothing else separates the players. No gear, no stats… only skill. That is the true measure of PvP. Gear should never equate to winning.

In Valorant the “players” you propose are subjective. A 100 hour player could be more skilled than the 3000 hour player, it’s just unlikely.

In New World the 100 hour player would get stomped regardless of skill, assuming they are not geared up and level 60… inserts list of mundane tasks that act as requirements to play the game

The player who is deserving is the one who played the best during that moment, if anything else determines the winner it is an uneven fight and a true PvP fan wouldn’t bother with it. Hence NW is filled with PvE players who will cry at the thought of fair PvP.

You proved yourself wrong by accident, so thank you. Real PvPers don’t bother with NW anymore anyways, they would be going to games more akin to Valorant, or even WoW (which has PvP specific talents, specs, and scaling).

[xquid]

I make no claims to be the best mage in the entire realm, but I am a rather thoughtful one. Concatenating the conversation of PvE and PvP is always going to make the discussion more difficult.

In PvE there are two things at play. One is the actual balance/performance of melees vs mages. People have already covered the many reasons why melee comes out on top regardless of mage weapon rotation. The upcoming changes to resistances help some. But FS clearly outranks other mage weapons in damage potential, leaving mages as a hardcoded dps role particularly impotent in fire mutations until more magical weapons are added to the game. IMO this mutation type should have been held back until that point if AGS wanted to be fair to mages (spoiler alert: they don’t).

The other is the perception that melee is just more viable. This is a problem because even when people bis out their gear, min max their rotations, and actually are a showstopping PvE mage (as many have contested they do), it doesn’t really matter for the situation OP has described.

I would fully expect this exclusionary attitude (which has a mild tinge of toxicity to it) to continue past the Brimstone update. AGS only has soft power over this too. Part of the brlliance of this game is that nobody can predict all the ways weapon combinations will be used and what, precisely, the meta will become based on changes. AGS can’t force people to want mages in their parties, but it’s important for them to know such an issue exists, since it’s evidence of rather glaring oversight.

Now, in PvP, many of the inherent issues against mages from mob resistances and mutation mechanics are not in play. Mages are a powerful and integral part of PvP rosters who can play several different roles. I think the most difficult part is identifying the function you’re best able to handle and the optimal setup for it.

VG dps without blade is completely negligible, it’s buff/debuff/cc. IG has a bit more damage, especially people that can aim spike, or it can be played more defensively with self buff and some cc. FS has more burst potential than most of the other weapons in the game with no defensive capabilities or utility besides burnout. So balance those functions with the right loadout (light for dmg, med/heavy for cc/utility), ensure key gear perks are in place, and you have a recipe for success as a mage in PvP. That’s not to say these are the only weapons available to you (rapier/bb, or even more off meta stuff can be interesting), but these 3 magical weapons make up the core and IMO somebody on an int build without even one of them is kinda trolling (or at least not a “mage”).

Even with a perfect build, positioning is also very important for mages. This can certainly be difficult with an organized party, let alone a group of randoms dropped into an OPR. The one thing I can say for sure about being a mage in PvP is that if you don’t practice, you won’t improve.

tldr: pve mage bad, pvp mage good, so change mobs/mutations not mages

[Archangel721]

From a PvP perspective, I can’t argue from a lot of experience, but I’ll offer a couple of thoughts.

First, fire damage can and often is heavily mitigated. My light attack often does as low as 700 per hit I’ve seen my burn as low as 60 per tick. I can gem for different damage which mitigates a little bit (50% of my direct damage avoids fire specific protections, but not elemental protections) but doesn’t bring fire damage back to an effective weapon strong enough to combat a GA/WH coming at me hard.

Second, mobility of a pure mage is terrible. There are a couple of slows for IG, spike is good if you can hit it, and a completely pathetic root for VG (edit: I haven’t tried the orb suggestion from @ligma1, that may make a good difference). The effect of these are not usually enough to allow me to escape (or attack) like the stun of riposte. The only real escape ability is burnout, but it has a long cast time and is interrupted by nearly everything. Beyond that, I definitely don’t have the ability to spam dodge as a means to keep myself alive. On this topic alone, I’m terrified at the proposed stamina changes across the forums. Lots of PvPers want to kill the dodge spam afforded dex users, but all of the proposed changes (even the changes in PTR) make life measurably worse for mages (who already have some of the worst mobility in the game).

I don’t doubt there are people who make mages useful in PvP. In my experience, the mages who are most effective in OPR and 3v3 have a good CC brute that can keep the damage off the mage. My experience in PvP is mostly joining solo to random groups and I have no meaningful protection that gives me some buffer with which to do damage. A brute is nearly always running right at me and I cannot find a way to get survivability. Frustratingly, with the randoms, even if I kite the brute to the others on my team they rarely make an attempt to force the brute to break off leaving me to die quickly (and them soon after).

I get the feeling many people here think I’m just dumb and don’t know what I’m doing. I definitely don’t time dodges well all the time, but I’ve retuned my build after every patch trying to keep up with the meta of the server and try to take in the advice of all the youtube/TTV kings. A big part of my problem in PvP is not having a regular group that functions as a group. This is a huge part of why I hate PvP and just don’t engage in it any more. Prior to the nerf of void, I did have a chance. Even when the brute came right for me, I could hit fireball and pillar at distance, root them and get about 75% damage by the time they knock me down… None of this was a guaranteed kill, btw, just a decent shot at winning or getting them to run from me. That simply isn’t possible any more. I’m lucky in most engagements if I can do 25% damage by the time I’m dead. I can accept that I’m doing it wrong… I stopped caring.

[xquid]

Yeh I mean defensively the tools a mage has are only really enough to stall for a getaway or some peel to show up to help.

Against a well-coordinated team [sic. healer], most damage feels like it isn’t making a dent. If someone has invested enough in fire resistance to reduce your damage that significantly, it’s a waste to focus them. I see that too, but I also see people get chunked a third of their health by one crit light. Those are the juicy targets.

Too many people just soak bruisers with damage thats healed off without any detriment to the opposing team. It’s good stat padding, but that’s it.

If people are running rubies in their armor in the first place, isn’t it proof mages are a real threat?

I’m less assuming anything about you and commenting more generally on the state of the game. If you really want to get away, try FS/rapier and exploit the grace tree the same way healers do. Survival is a priority, whatever avenue you might take to achieve it, because you’ll always do zero damage while dead.

[ligma1]

@Archangel721

You did try to help me in DMs. You assumed I was new to the game and tried to explain obvious mechanics.

Your problem is, you dont know how to play mage and you think you know how to play a mage.
Which is where this entitlement is coming from “I think i am good, and i’ve had 1.5k hours”
Just because you’ve spent time, doesn’t equate to fighting IQ or general game sense.

@Archangel721

Also… in my DM, I didn’t say anything about a HEAVY SPEAR (all we need is a few exclamations and a ZOMG).

???

@Archangel721

Though it is definitely true I get taken down by spears nearly every time I go into PvP. I suppose in your mind that makes me bad?

Not really, I dont have your fight VOD. But i can sense based on what stat/abilities you run and when you say you do 100ticks on flamethrower - you have something horribly wrong with your build and trying to cope here.

@Archangel721

the summary here is that I’m bad, mages are OP, its my imagination that I’m being excluded from high end content, and I should stop playing.

This is just oversimplification on your part while you wanna add sarcastic flair to your text to seem like you’re decent while taunting me. The reality is, despite playing for 1.5k hours you dont know how to kite or dont have good auto hit consistency. That is it. There is a possibility that you have 200ms latency and that is contributing to your 50-50% win ratio vs other players.

Regardless, i am done arguing. Make your case with AGS, I am sure mages like you have whined before and will keep on whining. If the class gets buffed because AGS balance team is stupid enough to think mage is under powered based on wantem cries of 1 player, Then so be it. I got my mage set ready for wars. Bye

[ligma1]

@Magestic

Wanna hear something that will make you depressed even more?

Great Axe’s Gravity Well has further REACH and better ROOT effects, ROOT PERKS compared to Void Gauntlent Psychic Scream. How does it make sense that the void gauntlet does no damage and struggles to even reach opponents.

wanna hear something that will make you rethink your decisions?
While great axe grav well can be easily dodged with just audio cues (yea you dont even need to see if coming to be able to dodge it), Scream is instant animation and unless you predodge it, You can never dodge it. So keep pumping the rhetoric.

[Thunda]

If AGS continues to include these types of resistances in Expeditions, another suggestion to make mages more relevant and on a more equal footing with non-magic builds in Expeditions:
Why not have each Expedition contain a variety of enemies with some being resistant to elemental damage and others being resistant to physical type damage? Ideally a semi equal proportion of the two types in each Expedition would be ideal but this at least makes both types of builds more valuable. Both will have enemies they can’t do as much damage to but will also have others they can. A team could run without mages or physical damage builds but may not be as optimal.

[ligma1]

@Archangel721

First, fire damage can and often is heavily mitigated. My light attack often does as low as 700 per hit I’ve seen my burn as low as 60 per tick. I can gem for different damage which mitigates a little bit (50% of my direct damage avoids fire specific protections, but not elemental protections) but doesn’t bring fire damage back to an effective weapon strong enough to combat a GA/WH coming at me hard.

Second, mobility of a pure mage is terrible. There are a couple of slows for IG, spike is good if you can hit it, and a completely pathetic root for VG (edit: I haven’t tried the orb suggestion from @ligma1, that may make a good difference).

I am not even going to read the rest, because you are screaming ‘I dont know what i am doing’
even With 50% fortify you wont auto for 700 or flame for 60 per tick. Paste your build/stats and show me a vod of you hitting that low, Because its BS.

[DankHoneyOil]

I read it all. But good TLDR pretty much covers everything.

[Nourri]

The “Reduce damage done” aspect of mutations is being removed. (in the sands update)

[Archangel721]

@ligma1

Regardless, i am done arguing.

If you were, you wouldn’t be trying to get the last word.

@ligma1

you dont know how to play mage and you think you know how to play a mage.

Possible. I’ve said a bunch, it is possible I’m bad, but me being bad doesn’t eliminate the empirical evidence offered by myself and others that mages are being excluded from m10s.

@ligma1

???

There is a difference between claiming a “HEAVY SPEAR” and having a spear heavy meta. Reading comprehension and copy/paste abilities seems to be lost here.

@ligma1

when you say you do 100ticks on flamethrower

Never said that. I’ve said twice my burn is 110 or less (down to 60). Again, reading comprehension is seriously lacking.

@ligma1

The reality is, despite playing for 1.5k hours you dont know how to kite or dont have good auto hit consistency.

1.2K hours. Kiting is easy. Hit consistency has never been a problem for me (and I don’t think in the litany of posts I’ve ever said I have a hard time hitting a target (feel free to fact check).

@ligma1

Make your case with AGS,

That is the entire point of my post… I don’t have to make a point to AGS… I’ve MADE a point to AGS. It is a point about PVE that you seem to think is inextricably linked to PVP which it is not. You have a point to make, which seems to require me being wrong… feel free to make a point to AGS about it.

@ligma1

Bye

One can hope.

[Nourri]

First of all you cap at 40% DR.

Second, There are low tick rates, its based on weapon damage. You have to understand that the “range” (Scope) of power (ie +weapon damage, +int, etc) is very large. As such a top end player with bisX3 is far stronger than one with less.

I do not doubt for a second that theree are 50-60k Ticks tnat scale up to even beyond 700dmg. I recently swapped to dex fairy and I see my bleed/poison ticks doing this amount of damage and before i went mage i was a fairy, and did 900-1000.

Something is Off. So he is likely telling the truth.

[Archangel721]

FML… Tried OPR just for the sake of it tonight. Light attack did as low as 500 with burn 40 per tick… Screenshots didn’t take right (and I don’t do twitch so no such thing as VOD for me)… but dying sure it fun. My team lost having less than 100 points…

[iBlackHmmer]

are you saying a void mage running up close to you with the obvious intention to scream is hard to dodge? thats not even predodging. scream is not harder to dodge then any other skill.

[HumbleHomunculus]

Make ice spike a skill shot nuke like it used to be but with the damage tuned down. Maybe a single instance of high damage, with the changes to roots it should be powerful again.

[MrSky]

Scream is really funny skill. You stay with guy face to face, using scream and then he dodges like nothing happends xd Dunno why this root is not being applied sometimes. Also gravity has 10m? And huge aoe. Scream is 5m with maybe in straight line ok maybe there is an angle but tiny xd

[MrSky]

It already can hit for 4-6k … previous version was def. Too strong.

[FredPL]

Adding more type of staffs would be nice. I’ve played a lot of GW2 (as elementalist) before I came to NW and it would be nice to have not only Fire Staff but also Water Staff / Air Staff / Earth Staff or some kind of equivalent of that so the mages wouldn’t be limited to fire staffs.