A 3-5 second internal cooldown on the haste wouldn’t be that big of a deal. You guys should be managing your position anyways. If a melee player gets on top of you, you should be punished. Not just kite endlessly due to perma haste. 3-5 seconds would be fair for both parties.
2 Likes
I use to think this way too when I used the musket exclusively, but after using melee for a bit I changed my opinion. When you use melee, you frequently switch between your two weapons. You do the same thing when using FS/IG/VG. However, with the musket/bow, you mostly use your musket/bow to do damage, and you typically only use your secondary weapon to help you escape.
I think the game would be better if musket/bow’s secondary weapon (rapier, spear, etc.) was more important in their play style, and the idea of kiting away was not really viable. It would solve a lot of the frustrations melee players have when fighting dex range players. You would obviously buff the musket’s health and probably buff the offensive rapier, and other parts of bow/musket’s kits so they are not “free kills” in melee combat.
1 Like
Exactly, what you say is really very good.
For this we need the permanent and passive acceleration to disappear, this is wrong from the beginning of the game.
Gee, I wonder why. Probably because you went from being frustrated with being farmed as a musket, to then being farmed by muskets. May be a skill issue my guy.
Shocker, a build based around 1 weapon being a primary, and 2nd being a utility. Almost like every other build effective in this game. 
This means hammer needs buffed, IG needs buffed, rapier needs buffed, VG needs buffed, and so on.
Dex is meant to have agility.
" The meaning of DEXTERITY is readiness and grace in physical activity"
Buffing musket and bow, would not do well with the community.
Get rid of haste from musket/bow. Remove haste from EVERY SINGLE OTHER WEAPON.
I understand none of what you just claimed? Bloom nerf was brought into counter balance haste on the musket? Despite bow having the haste as well?
I think the problems with melee vs dex range are obvious if you play melee for a few days. I do think what I suggested would solve a lot of problems and I think it would make the bow/musket playstyle more fun.
I’m not the best player, but when I used the musket I rarely died in OPR, especially to melee. If I did die it was typically to other muskets. This screen shoot was from the last time I used the musket. I hadn’t used the musket for about a month before this screenshot, and I did an experiment to see how many OPR matches it took to get >50 kills. It took me 16 games with an enchanted + attunement + keen musket. I’ve posted videos of >50 kill games pre-attunement/runeglass, if you really care.
Yea, I think it could mean more dodges/stamina opposed to haste.
I think this would be fine.
This whole conversation would not be needed if haste doesn’t exist in the first place. Thats the whole point. Haste is the root of the problem. The devs assuming that bloom should counter the musket is a mistake.
Can you please make a clear connection that demonstrates how haste on the musket is the root of every problem?
You are “asserting” this but not “explaining” how you know this to be true….
To use a metaphors…. It’s not very convincing when you present the “findings” without explaining the “experiment”.
Haste on musket AND bow. You give these weapons the advantage of damage equal to melee but on top of that free haste at 20% with no CD makes it so you can infinitely run away at 0 risk. So you can just run until they give up and then repeat your same process of sniping. Same goes for bow. Infinite haste, insanely high damage, 0 risk.
The dev’s approach to the problem was extremely misguided and decided to turn shots into an RNG of shots which goes into the feature of bloom. Bloom is a horrible descion because it still encourages camping but turns the shots into random hits rather than skill based hits. And then they still have the advantage of high damage high fire rate, infinite haste. But at the cost of having shots be RNG.
OP was clearly addressing that haste should have been the initial problem to address rather than implementing bloom. When you give a weapon such as range the pleasure of balance, you need consider what trade offs they need. But musket has no trade off. Which is why its been so broken the past year.
1 Like
The musket has very low health (5 or 50 con), so that is a pretty big trade off.
The bow, however, has 0 negatives, IMO.
I agree with the other stuff you wrote.
2 Likes
low health doesnt amount to anything when they are never engaged in combat. This contradicts every single time someone wants to make that arguement.
Why would someone need to explain why 2 weapons with the furthest range in the game, with auto attacks that can consistently hit harder than every ability in the game from across the map also be allowed to have perma haste? So when players do get on top of them to punish them, they can just simply endlessly kite due to perma haste is beyond me. Y’all are so cringe.
You guys should be punished for having players get to top of you, but nah y’all get endlessly haste plus rapier/hatchet crutch just to get out of trouble then just endlessly kite due to perma haste from your musket/bow.
It should have a small 3-5 second internal cooldown. The fact you guys are all so against shows how much of a problem it is. You guys will no longer be able endlessly to run away from every weapon damn near. you can still get haste to help kite but you can’t endlessly just run away.
1 Like
Hi @Khailvngo , thank you for clarifying. I feel like I understand you now.
So if we give ranged players 200% haste, clearly they will never be touched. If we give them absolutely no haste at all, then logically they can never shoot someone once they are being chased, because they have no way of “breaking distance”. Melee kits are given “gap closers” such as charge and leaping strike that force ranged players to keep very specific distance between themselves and the fight.
I’d much rather see a damage reduction (which was implemented in the new patch) to ranged classes than have them lose their mobility. No sane player would play a ranged weapon if melee players could jsut chase them down with gap closers. Reduced ranged damage would alsp give melee palyers more time to respond to being targeted by ranged players. This would, in my oppinion, be better for the game.
Do we agree that, on a “Haste spectrum” ranged players shouldnt be at either end, but should be somewhere in the middle?
Mages have less range than dex and don’t get perma haste. The mobility from light dodges is enough to get away from any medium melee if you know what you’re doing. Also don’t forget that most bows run either rapier or hatchet as secondary these days. Super easy to get away with those weapons.
How i see it is that they need a trade off, If we give ranged damage then we reduce mobility, If we give them movement then we reduce damage. But movement needs to be skillfully initiated. Bows get 10% for simply dodging with no cd to refresh haste and 10% for swapping to bow. Thats a 15% perm haste for minimal effort. And musket gets 10% for 3 seconds no cd. One dodge takes up 40 stam which takes 3.5 seconds to recover. This means being permnantly ahead of your chaser.
If you want to value movement more than damage im all for it, but do it in an engaging way. Abilities such as evade shot to back up Or stopping power to zone your target seem like good starts to creating kite mechanic game play. And if ags decided to emphasise on that style of game play, then that’d be more appropriate.
This is an example of how i imagine a confident and good musket player. They punish bad game play with staggers and capitalize on the fact that gs can be staggered. It makes musket game play seem more engaging and less running.
yea i think the rapier needs to get re-worked… its such a silly mobility weapon that no one uses except to escape. Escapes are important, but its a shame to see a whole weapons identity centre around enabling other weapons to escape 
You are absolutely right with this paragraph.
While I think the bloom has to exist, it should affect shots beyond 40m more, and perhaps less on close shots.
I agree with you about the trade off, it still seems crazy to me that the devs chose to put “Mobility and damage” together on the same light armor trade off. it should be one at the cost of the other.
in my opinion, ranged players should not have any stuns, staggers or slows. Conceptually, ranged players think about the stuns and staggers defensively as a way to escape melee players, but in practice, this is not how they are used. When two melee ppl are fighting, a bow player can chain a stagger onto a melee player’s stun so easily. It is, in my opinion, too opressive to allow someone to stun and stager you form a safe distance, ensuring that other players can land more stun/staggers on you, locking you down further and making it even easier for ranged players to land their shots.
my views below:
Ranged players should have moderate damage and mobility
melee payers should have moderate damage and survivability
Burst assassin builds should have high damage, and low mobility and low survivability
healers should have low damage, moderate mobility, moderate survivability
some players use it agressivly, and I like this play style, i think it is thematicaly nice 
Most of the time though, rapier is paired with healers and ranged players purley for the escape and safety it provides.
I would must rather see escape skills built into other weapons kits, instead of rapiers centrel identity being centered about escaping.