What you said makes sense to me, but maybe you could read this post from a seasoned tank and explain why he thinks the way he does.
the post is mine. my comment is more focused on tank PVP.
Nobody really cares about the PVE in this game (at least none of the competitive players, from the dominant guilds), because PVE in the NW is just ridiculously easy.
Does the nerf in RM affect the build in both pve and pvp? Of course it does, but the general balance is positive for tanks in pvp, especially in war.
For those who care about pve, I believe that GS becomes a very interesting option.
now if you refer specifically to the colleague’s comment on my post, I disagree with his opinion and that’s ok.
Yes, I was referring to Mewziqal’s post. Can you explain why he thinks the RM nerf will be crippling for tanking with SnS in expeditions?
I’m not weighing in as an expert here but my guess is that tanks simply won’t be able to refresh their CDs very quickly now. The thing that this ultimately means is things are slower, by necessity. The wild thing about NW is, compared to older MMORPGs I’ve played, no one seems to care about their group; in older games I’ve played, it was taken to extremes (players would announce when their mana was full, ready for another pull, as an example) and I’m not saying that’s how it should be in NW with CDs (“CDs ready, you can pull now”) but I do roll my eyes every time I see a healer or DPS player dashing off to initiate the next pull, ignoring the tank entirely. This is sometimes done so rapidly as to actually be the cause of wipes (CDs or not) and it’s just weird how some people think the only way to run mutations is how they saw it on a YT video, group composition/experience/communication be damned. You know, pulling those 25 npcs in two groups will always be faster if your group wipes when you pull them all in one go… And the amount of time saved if you run the risk is just brinksmanship; something I’d agree is fine for coordinated speed running groups to go for (and find fun) but never in a pub group. And all this change could possibly mean for coordinated speed runners is they may take a little longer to finish…
In my opinion, in pub groups, the tank should literally call every encounter except when the group have already agreed on certain pulls (but at least everyone should wait for the tank to be ready).
Not having skills up as a tank can be really bad if a pull is made too early. Right now, a couple swings with the sword and those CDs are done. This may change. And that only means one thing: more strategy required as a group (read, a bit more patience and not rushing).
Given that I’ve completed M10s in good times and with good scores (read “good” as “not speed running”) where we tend to not rush and just take our time, enough that the tank doesn’t need massive CD reduction… I’m fairly confident that this change won’t be “crippling” for us even in M10s. We’ll probably still finish Genesis in about 20-24m or so. And we’re happy with that.
There is no single encounter where anyone would be crippled if the tank engages fully, gains agro and everyone then engages for the rest of the fight. It’s only when adds jump in too early or the group rush pulls and the tank isn’t ready that the fan gets hit. This change can impact that but I don’t think it’s a big deal. It just means some groups will wipe a bit more when they rush.
The tank isn’t going to suddenly not be able to tank (even with them having 300 con - I am simply amazed that anyone actually thinks a tank has to have 300 str to keep agro; you can literally slap a carnelian into a weapon and steal it right off a 300 str tank if you like, damage be damned; sure, up until this patch… they may as well be 300 str for obvious reasons but with 300 con tanks will be absolutely fine if they know how to tank).
I’d still use it if I can though, as a tank, in PVE. It’ll still speed things up a bit. But that’s all it changes… how fast things can go. But that’s not the only thing changing in this patch so…
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i appreciate the response, but my thick skull can’t process how a .2 second CD will have that much of an effect.
Also, do you think a tank should be okay with 200 str 300 con? I have pristine carnelians on both weapons and my WH has hate as well. I don’t yet have a hate earring, should I be okay?
I don’t think it will have the “crippling” effect but it does have a big impact. You can even sort of test it on live right now with a weapon that has refreshing move on it. I have it on an ancient WH and I’ll use it with left clicks to blast CDs in just one or two swings if I’m hitting a clump of npcs (obviously combined with the standard light attack CD reduction skill). If I do the same against one target, it takes a lot longer. The 0.2s CD will, so far as I can tell, effectively change each swing in a clump to just trigger the effect once per swing (as it’ll hit the 0.2 CD trigger on the first npc you hit, meaning it doesn’t apply to the others you hit in the same swing).
So, big impact. I just think saying it’ll be “crippling” for tanks in mutations is omitting a ton of context. You can absolutely gold run any M10 with a tank who doesn’t even use the perk at all so who is this “crippling”? Bad groups? Maybe, yes. Speed runners? I doubt it. They’ll maybe be a little slower? Who cares?
Always depends on a lot of factors, this. If your group constantly engage immediately, ignore what you’re doing and take zero care in anything they do… then I think any tank could struggle with that even in the current version. Under “normal” circumstances, though, hated and carnelians and a tank that actually swings their weapons (and uses the right hate generating skills in the right way) should have zero problem managing agro with 300 con.
Even right now, with the current version, the tank I run with can sometimes lose agro in busy/uncontrolled clumps, because the DDs we tend to run with do very high damage (I mean, I actively try to do it to wind her up :D). It’s no big deal, they get the agro back very quickly and we all know how to handle getting agro (and often enough deliberately do it to help the tank manage ranged npcs). But if you’re hitting a mob and doing everything you should be? I doubt the added damage from 300str is the reason you’re keeping agro now (and you could test it now anyway and I’ll bet you would do fine except, obviously, then you’d lose the grit and that is clearly a huge benefit to tanks holding agro). And, honestly, it’s unreasonable to expect a tank to hold 100% agro all the time on every mob in a mutation anyway? It is possible to a degree but not necessary.
I mean… would the game be so horrible if damage dealers and healers actually had to… manage their agro for once? I’m not suggesting that is going to be required but… NW currently is designed in a way that means we have almost zero thought required for it. And it’s honestly just so basic.
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Is that why most PvP modes only pop from people begging others to join? Interesting.
I see, with no CD one swing into a group of mobs triggers RM per hit, where any CD would be only one CDR for the same swing. Thank you very much.
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It’s actually because the content is also saturated. unfortunately, we don’t have big news in pvp modes. The last one added was 3x3 arena, which is pretty boring.
This is my understanding of it (but I haven’t tested and so don’t consider myself the expert).
I think it’s a good change, in general. The way it has been is just silly (like most stackable stuff in the game, if I’m honest).
Fair enough, but being rewarded for simultaneously dealing with more enemies could still be a thing.
It is. Blasting clumps is still the meta way to handle PVE content quickly (and the reward is the time). Keeping them clumped together also improves safety.
This is a marginal part of that. As I said, you don’t even need the perk on your weapon to be an effective tank in anything up to M10. It just speeds stuff up if you do have it. It’s a very nice thing to have. It’ll still be nice. Just not so silly.
That said, stuff like this could all be handled differently. Skills like the hatchet has that scale up depending on the number of NPCs in proximity (with an upper cap) is a sensible way to handle it. This could have worked like that as well and the upper cap just sets the “silliness” limit.
Hello I got notified of this so I’ll explain my thought process here. Note that this might be more significant for people that are pushing top leaderboard times and scores.
Refreshing move is just absolutely broken for SnS for 2 big reasons.
1: Taunting: Taunts are able to be used more often. This makes it less likely that any DPS or healer will pull aggro from you. As you play with more DPS that are pumping with like 5 con and BIS gear, they might pull mobs from you at a much higher rate than you’d expect. Especially if they aren’t running evasive/beloved. God forbid you aren’t running despised either.
2: Survivability: Defender’s Resolve gives you 50% flat damage reduction ON TOP of all your fortifies, ward potions, aversions, passives, etc. You can basically reach 100% mitigation against some damage types with the right combination of things. (In current patch. This is not the case after the update. Lots of this is no longer the case after the update) If you watch some of the high end tank videos, you’ll see sometimes they take 0 damage and the mitigation number is max integer value. You’ll think “How is he mitigating 2.1 billion damage?” the answer is stacking all of the available mitigations effectively. They are reaching 100% mitigation and the game doesn’t know what to do with that. With RM as it is pre-nerf, in big enough clumps you can maintain the defender’s resolve damage mitigation almost 100% of the time.
Now lets talk about this for post-patch. For starters, .2 seconds is HUGE because it means you only get 1 proc per swing. Nowadays you proc it on every enemy hit with light/heavy attacks. After patch it will be 1 proc per swing. This is a pretty big nerf for SnS tanking.
Sword and shield will no longer have grit on light attacks at 300 str. Now you might say “Just use 300 con” and sure that is an option. Might even be the best option for pugs. But if you are trying to push leaderboards then that’s not going to be a viable option. 300 con will give you grit, but you’re also doing waaaayyy less damage. This means you generate way less threat. To get around generating less threat, the normal solution would be to TAUNT. but wait… RM got nerfed and defender’s resolve has the longest CD in the entire game. So now you can taunt once every like 15 seconds (maybe?) and you also do way less damage if you want grit.
Okay so now lets say you go 300 str like you do pre-patch. Your light attacks will do more damage than having 300 con, of course. But you don’t have grit. This means like none of your attacks will even land because you’ll just get staggered. SnS has no built in grit in the SnS tree so you can’t rely on that like you can for other melee weapons like hatchet, GA, WH, GS, etc. So how do you go about fixing that? I honestly am not sure what the solution will be yet. In my head SnS tanking will be incredibly difficult to pull off but I have yet to try it out on PTR myself.
I know other people will say go 300 con and use another despised/hated. And yeah that’s fair. but haven’t we been complaining as a community about making certain perks required for success? Like people have been hating on resilient being a requirement on every pvp piece for a long time. Forcing tanks to run despised and 2x hated just seems like the same thing. Let us be versatile in our builds if we want to be.
To me this is a pvp change that has had a severe affect on pve in a way that they probably didn’t imagine. SnS needs grit in PvE. It’s going to be very interesting to see how people SnS tank without it going forward.
Also the dude replying to you in this post doesn’t PvE so their opinion on it is based purely on pvp. They also seem to think PvE shouldn’t be factored into balancing at all because it’s worthless which is just such an incredibly ignorant take. The top companies in NW are probably like at most… 5% of the active player base? If that even? like what are we doing here… catering the balance of New World to strictly war logging PvP companies? That is just nuts. They are right about one thing though, GS tanking will probably be waaaaay more common.
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I really appreciate you taking the time. I want to learn to tank in expeditions but I’m probably going to wait and see how veterans like yourself adjust tomorrow. Should be interesting.
qft
GS tanking is already fun and with the new Patch, i can see GS primary tanking becoming an option for PvE.
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in general, what moves a game is the PVE, without a doubt. NW was very popular in the beginning due to its dynamic combat and an interesting PVE.
however today, with the direction the game has taken, PVE is no longer challenging. players looking for a real challenge in PVE have better options to play with.
That’s why for the NW specifically, PVE is no longer their biggest advertisement, which obviously made the player population drop.
I really hope that with the changes announced this year, this situation will be reversed and PVE will be challenging again, because today it is something totally banal.
You can even comment on disputes for better times in M10, but this is not an intrinsic difficulty of the PVE content of the game. this is player trying to add some difficulty with competition for PVE to become interesting.
maybe raid is the real PVE challenge of the game, with incredibly difficult mobs and bosses, with the need for unique mechanics and not something banal like what we have today.
about this part, i agree with you, when i speed run with my group, i only use GS and it will get even better with the calamity counter changes. not to mention that the challenger posture buff remains the old fortify, so GS will help a lot in damage mitigation.
So you could say up until today it used to be an aoe cd reduction, getting reduction from every mob hit by that swing. Now with the immediate rm .2s cd upon a single hit, it becomes a single target cd reduction.
Hit 10 mobs before you get 10x cdr, Hit 10 mobs now you get 1x cdr.
That the jist o fit?
exactly