Crowd control balance vs Rapier

Right so let me start off by saying that this whole balance patch (in terms of combat & weapon changes) looks really good on paper. Some changes that were requested for months and months now are now being added to the game. Give credit when is due, good job AGS.

This part is interesting:

I find it to be an interesting concept except it’s a neon sign sayin NERF EVERYTHING. I do understand that with GRIT on LMB being moved to 300con some changes should happen, but it’s not like GRIT got removed from the game entirely.

Here’s one example of a weapon getting back to square 1:

In one go 3 staggers got taken away from a weapon.

This basically means that a skill tree which was already off meta will be a distant memory imo.

So why square one? Well from PvP PoV: everyone will go use grace tree again. Yes I know that at least 80-90% of rapier players were using grace either way but now everyone (maybe except few occasional masochists) will. Giving Finalize a tondo stack on last hit is hardly a trade-off here considering Flurry is cheeks for PvP. All in all it’s a huge nerf to blood tree, yet again.

I thought that Desert Sunrise was bad enough but this is just one big oof. Guys.

Just a small nit-pick from a Rapier player POV and it’s still a great patch.

@Aenwyn @Delakron

Edit: this is how the “push back” added instead of staggers works on PTR now

I understand that the stagger on Finish was a bit too oppressive in some situations but removing it from Flourish as well is just a huge, unnecessary nerf to blood tree.

It currently needs a buff (usage buff, it has enough damage) not nerfs, it was off-meta before PTR.

Please revert this change to FnF (at least for flourish), add bigger lunge to Flurry and make Tondo animation faster. Thank you.

I also added Arkane suggestion as a solution. Worth considering for the future of blood tree.


yea this one is so dumb. ppl cried for a a year about thew defensive rapier. we start playing it offensively, spitting on everyone with FnF and then the devs be like: nah back to riposte you go


It wouldn’t be so bad is riposte actually worked even 75% of the time but it is dog water. F&F stagger was the only thing that prevented me from getting walked on by brainless W keying GS users.


Rapier? What’s that?

AGS never change…

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OP makes a good point.

Rapier, an already dogpoop weapon is now becoming even more dogpoop because… why?


Yea, I feel like the offensive rapier could use some sort of buff or allow it to keep the FnF stagger, at least one of them.

Maybe give FnF another debuff (rend/weaking/disease) or damage buff if you are going to remove the staggers.

Tondo and flurry are not very good in PvP. If Tondo had a much faster animation and the new flurry bleed applied to the first hit (not the last) it might be better? Maybe add bleeds to the fletch and evade?

Alternatively, a slight increase in tracking, 0.5 to 1m, would make a huge difference too.

If FnF kept it staggers, the rapier would probably be a good offensive weapon in the upcoming patch.


Yep I was thinking the same thing + Flurry having a bigger leap forward.


As a bow rapier player, im not too happy lol. Riposte is trash and now FnF is subpar at best without its stagger.


U mean, useless unless u play bleed tree, which you dont because it still sucks as before, actually sucks more now

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Entire Blood tree needs rework
Tondo feels cluncky and it’s passives marely impactful
Flurry is not threatening (give it fixed damage each hit, not ramping when enemy already walked away)
And now FnF…
Removing stagger from Finish is fine i guess, but landing Finish will be a miracle now without Flourish stagger! And because these attacks have no stagger, they will also not deal any stamina damage on blocks.
Blood tree seems like a funny tree, but it’s so underwhelming with this lack of fluidity


That is exactly why people were advocating for smaller more frequent balance changes.

They could have easily moved 300str perk and remove certain staggers a patch later, if they turned out to be too oppressive.
The Brimstone patch already gutted the offensive capabilities of evade only and now it is just like a worse version of hatchet for running away.

I play IG/rapier and this ptr patch stripped my build of literally any meaningful cc it had. Rapier just can’t trade blows with other melee weapons. FnF was the only thing saving me from greatswords due to their most used abilities in pvp could be staggered.

Anyway, i don’t mind tossing my build in the bin like ags did with rapier, but there still is no valid alternative for melee weapons on INT builds.


Poor bleed tree. Wery subpar to begin with, and then hit with nerf, after nerf, after nerf, for no good reason at all.

This change makes the already weak Blood tree completely unusable in PvP, and indirectly nerfs the Grace tree which now must rely solely on Ripost. And that damn thing does work half the time, which, of course, is not getting fixed any time soon.

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IMHO… Tondo and FnF should be combined. With flourish being changed to tondo with the original flourish animation and then having the option to burst it with fininsh, or not and land another stack. This would open up a third ability slot on the bleed side for something new.

The bleed tree should be fully about stacking and bursting bleeds, right now it has one way of doing that (i’m not counting flurry, that is a tone-deaf add from the devs).

Either way, Rapier has suffered from being an escape weapon for far too long and that is it’s reputation. It won’t receive any meaningful buffs until its reworked and it has far to much bad blood with the player base for there to be any reasonable outcry for a buff.


This is a great idea actually but I would personally keep the tondo animation and make it quicker tho.


Yup it is frustrating for me as a trickster main. I like mixing the rapier with int weapons it’s vrazy fun in small scale combat. This game could use more dex/int scalling weapons to address this.

Rapier just gets one nerf after another and previous ones were kind of justified but this one is just too much. It guts blood build which is already off-meta.

I do understand that a lot of people now (including myself) went for evade/riposte with FnF and Fleche build which may have caused devs to overreact seeing data telemetry. They should know better tho, hopefully this gets sorted before it hits live server.


Keeping Tondo is fine by me… But give me 10% bleed on Flourish. Bump Tondo up to 15% bleed at the Proper Spacing Node… Change Light Edge to 2 - 5% bleeds on mid swipes. Keep finish at 150% bleed pop… Remove the bleed from flurry final node, but make flurry final pop bleeds at 100% damage after extending them. That way I have multiple ways of poping and stacking bleed in the bleed tree.
Hell, Firestaff is stealing our identity as a DOT burster weapon this patch without changes like this.


FnF takes no skill because it has grit you can just mindlessly use it, good nerf because the ability is easy to use.

very true the stagger from flourish should have stayed at least. the finish part could have gone


Butt hurt bruiser spamming every topic… Ignore / block and move on.

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