Giving PVE rewards to PVP players is bad design

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264

I think you responded to the wrong person there. He seems to agree with you. I don’t.

Pvp is gameplay that involves fighting other players. Crafting does not require that, so it’s not pvp.

Pvp is not “everything you can do with your flag turned on”. Otherwise they could remove wars, territory control, OP, and arenas and still claim there’s a ton of pvp in the game. Hey go mine. That’s pvp. Except it’s not.

Pvp also does not equal competition. Pve players compete with each other in many ways, they just don’t fight each otherr to do it. In fact that’s one of my basic beefs with most games - there are lots of ways for pve players to compete, but the games donn’t bother putting those in.

265

So, competing against other players isn’t player vs player gameplay? Seems contradictory. I am not saying that PvP is everything that you can do while flagged, I am saying that crafting and gathering is way more of a PvP venture than PvE. PvP doesn’t strictly mean fighting other players. It’s all about competition.

If we were talking about doing quests, farming mobs, dungeon crawling, portals, invasions, or anything else where you are directly versing the environment, I would agree. However, you do not verse the environment when you are crafting and gathering. You are either competing vs other players for nodes, or are profiting off other players competing for nodes by buying on the trading post. Hell, even the players that sit on the TP all day and trade are competing against other players. It is indirect PvP, but it is not PvE.

266

All competition isn’t pvp, at least the way the term pvp is being used here.

When people say pvp, they mean fighting other players, they don’t mean competing to be the best armorsmith on the server (which includes being the best at getting the mats)

If an activity doesn’t require hitting other players with a stick, it’s not what people mean when they say pvp.

Has anyone ever tried claiming a game is pvp because players compete to be the best crafter? (With no actual combat involved)

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267

does it really matter if luck doesn’t even work?
I don’t see why they can’t have that extra 0.005% increase

268

I am not saying all competition is. Something like WoW’s MDI tournament I wouldn’t consider PvP but it is a competition in the truest sense.

With gathering (less so for crafting ig but you need the mats regardless) you are directly competing with other players. There is no middle man between you and me getting the node. It is whoever gets there first, and if you both are flagged it just gets extra spicey.

Like if me and you were contesting the same node path for a week I would tell my buddies that I have been fighting another player all week for my route. I wouldn’t say that I got out PvE’d because I lost some nodes.

269

But you wouldn’t call that open world pvp either. If you could, nobody would ever need to flag up, we’d all just race for nodes. It’s competition, but nobody would call that pvp.

pvp always has to do with combat against other players - weapons, skills, etc. Without that, people would think you were pretty silly claiming something was pvp. I think pvp rewards should always be for combat against other players. No combat - no reward.

270

Risk versus reward pvp. It’s good for the game.

271

How did they find you again after you swapped the theritory on death?

272

I feel bad for you, since your server has to be very boring. In my server we discuss political and economy strategies to weaken other fractions and get more power for us. We use baits to sneak a war, by taking forts and running pvp missions, sometimes using longer ways, or instead of going in a big group we split up, some of us running pvp and some of us using the pirate emote or lay down in front of enemies for dominance :smiley: In terms of economy and social developement, my server showed a drastic increase in funny and catchy advertises for bufffood, trophys, ressources and all kinds of stuff. Server feels like a village, in which you’d know each other. I got 320+ hours of playing and got 60 2 weeks ago. I feel like i have lots of things to do, and replay potential for every zone lv 40 + is given through crafting. First game which motivates me to farm and find my own spots.

I dislike pvp missions, since they are very boring and more often PVE. I wanna bring up an idea someone in this forum had, which was probably inspired by GW2 ; Every territory should get 4-6 Flagpoints simillar to the fort but without beeing a castle or smth. Players who are flagged can conquer the point . Conquered points grant territory standing per minute. After a certain threshold of territory standing was generated through one Flagpoint by one Fraction, the flagpoint gets a “domination” status for “x” time. While beeing dominated Flagpoints cant be conquered. Having 1 point grants specific bonus for the territory. Holding 2 or 3 points grants another bonus. Bonus should be close to ressources or other things, which you can do well in that territory. This way you’d create some open world

As example for windsward. Holding Flagpoint A grants 5% yield when farming hemp in windsward.
Holding Flagpoint B grants 5% luck when harvesting silk. etc pp.

Fort needs to get some “dominated” status too, because right now its just flipping and flipping again, whenever one lonely dude decides to enter the fort for the territory bonus.
Windsward fort increasing yield as example ; Right now I’ll conquer the fort, and wanna go farm with the yield bonus, while the fort instantly gets flipped again from one enemy. Then enemy wants to farm, while fort is getting flipped again by me or someone else. Its increadibly hard to use forts holding bonus.

Since you’d have those flagpoints besides the fort you’d have more open world pvp content even tough playing arround the fort would metaphorically be blocked whenever its dominated. There are enough flagpoints, which wont be all dominated in the same time.

Ideas are not final, but i think everyones getting my direction.

At last i wanted to ask? Why do people think you’d drop the best gear in dungeons and outpost rush? Afaik there are only 2 different gs600 armors which can be dropped, and both are pretty boring. There is a good ammount of good weapons, which can be found via dungeons or other content, but in terms of armor ; best endgame armor comes from crafting.
And in case you dont like any of the legendary weapons, you can craft your own. Perks are based on pure RNG, but this means that you can get your indivdual god rolls.

Crafting gear is the endgame gear.

273

Your server sounds like a lot of fun. I think how well the game works is going to depend a lot on the server, and we’re all going to have different experiences.

On my server, a couple of the biggest companies decided to not attack each other once they had grabbed up all the land, and the smaller companies who depended on them to assist in their wars got ignored and taken over and after a while nobody did anything at all. Our chat consists of people running portal groups or epic mob farming groups and the only other thing they ever talk about is their own d&$%s really.

274

Gain 1% luck every 30 minutes flagged stacks 20 times. Stacks reset when you toggle pvp off (entering and leaving city doesnt count as toggling off however dont gain stacks while in the city or logged off

275

It is still much closer to a PvP activity than PvE. It’s literally versus other players, and that is why there is extra luck for flagging.

PvP is stigmatized as only being combat, but that is not truth.

276

It’s not being stigmatized, it’s being defined that way by the people who like to do pvp!

If simply contesting nodes unflagged was pvp, everyone yelling that there’s not enough open world pvp could stop right now. All they have to do is unflag, swarm the mining routes,and contest the nodes unflagged. They’d have plenty of pvp…if they considered that to be pvp.

Seriously…you can’t tell me that pvp players would be overjoyed with a game where the “combat” consisted of non-combat competition over crafting material nodes. You see pvp players complaining every day about that kind of competition against unflagged players. It’s frustrating as hell that they can’t engage them in combat. They want those people to …PVP.

Mining ore and picking hemp are pve activities because they don’t require combat. Racing a player to a node is not combat. It’s barely even competition.

The people trying to redefine pvp to be a node race just to justify getting a luck boost have gone off the rails with this. It’s like a little kid making up reasons why he should have candy for breakfast. Everyone sees through them.

And the luck boost isn’t in yet. I’m hoping someone will take a hint from this discussion and start really developing pvp rewards instead of grabbing little bits of pve things and dropping them on people just because they put their flag on. First they did it with exp, then they did it with gold, neither of those did any good at all, so they’ll try again with luck. That won’t do any good either, and the only result is that the pve players are starting to get pissed off that so many benefits are being gated behind flagging. Let the devs try something more intelligent next.

If they do, I guarantee you’ll like that better than fluffy bits of pve bonuses. And it might actually create the amount of pvp people are looking for.

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277

I think it’s a huge mistake to split PvP and PvE into two separate ecosystems. PvPers are already forced to PvE for gear and resources and it’s already a huge compromise that PvEers are able to opt out of PvP.

PvP for PvPs sake gets old quickly, for PvP to work long term it needs to be a rational risk/reward decision. I don’t consider myself a “PvP player” but I’ve leveled to 60 flagged at all times because to me the risk(dying and losing time and resources) was worth the reward(10% exp but more importantly the exp/mastery for killing a player). On the other hand, at lvl 60 and very likely with max mastery on the weapons you’re wielding, even the current proposition of 1% luck is not enough to make flagging be worth it for me.

278

Here’s the cold hard truth, you have absolutely zero data aside from your own personal anecdotes in your claim that the majority of MMO players don’t care about PvP.

Zip, zero, zilch.

PvE players are not hurt by this at all. It’s like complaining that people can raise watermark by elite farming or doing chest runs.

279

They could give PvP players titles, armor/weapon skins for ranking.

280

What are you smoking lol?

You think this minor luck boost is going to drastically change the way people farm nodes?

If anything it’s going to get people to work on throwing territory into conflict more and seek out more world pvp because it’s an alternative to mindless elite farming for hours on end.

Stop being a coward and flag up if you think 1% luck is truly that big a difference, you’ll find that the majority of people you run into while doing a route aren’t flagged anyway.

You’re creating a problem where there aren’t any.

281

The best items are crafted so they have plenty use, just have to max out proffesions and find the recipes to make stuff, or you will just have to rely or lady luck when you max out your watermark and hope something good drops.

282

Looks like you’ve misunderstood the entire thread. Maybe you could go back and read some of it.

283

It’s not mixed content at all. If your doing a pve activity. You gear is different. Your stats are different. Your quickbar and consumables/food are completely different.

Every activity in this game is designed to be done with mutual exclusivity. If your mining, your not harvesting. I know this because the gear, stats, consumes all make your more effective in one area or another. It also costs a lot of money for these things. This means from an economic standpoint you would be far less effective than myself if you play the game you propose weaving all activities together at once.

After 8 hours you would have a tiny fraction of the rare materials I gathered. It’s a fact based on the yield generated from doing activities mutually exclusive of one another with the proper investments into trophies, gear, consumables, and tools.

Therefore you are completely unknowledgable to not have already acknowledged this most obvious design philosophy and its effects on luck. Clearly this promotes flagging while gathering which has absolutely zero relevance to meaningful pvp encounters that amazon wish to create from their change as they stated…