How agro works(?) and possible changes (from my experience)

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15

so this is where theory crafting is a beautiful thing, for those saying that I can’t be good at tanking and dealing damage, well consider this for a second

if I sink 95-100 points from level up into STR and 90-95 into CON that’s a fairly even split yes? well if I was to get just about god tier luck and hope that I can either craft (bit more reliable as I can apply the crafting mod when crafting, just questionable on the GS) or get drops on equipment which are mostly CON/STR or STR/CON (first is primary stat, second is secondary stat, so weapons and armor [of the barbarian]) my friend has said I could come out with ~ 200-250 in both STR and CON

now onto the gems, if I wasn’t forced into taking carnelians on my weapons I would need 1 weapon with a ruby, topaz, sapphire, and amber (1 of each for the elemental stats that give the biggest bonus to each enemy type minus beasts) if not one of those 4, I could also go jasper, malachite, or opal for flat damage increases, thats already needing 5 of a single weapon each and I switch between 4, so instead of 20 different weapons, that is now 24 not to mention if I want to swap to one of the other 8 weapons for the mastery. as for armor gems, for equal amounts I can go a 4-4 split (5 armor pieces and 3 accessories) of onyx/opals or diamonds/malachite gems for the increase in armor and elemental resist

now I know this isn’t perfect, but it is plausible, considering my healer friend in the ptr was testing like the cap on stats and if you maxed 1 stat you’d have ~ 407 is what he sent me in a picture and he had all dex armor and weapons, and let me say he was clocking 10k on bow crit, or 6k on a musket

so with all this information it seems like melee damage is just weaker unless someone can tell me what melee dps’s are clocking at full STR how much damage they clock consistently, because from what I’ve seen they can’t match the damage which means that in order to be the focus in combat, they force you to take carnelian gems in order to hold agro which means you lose out on damage unless you have your second weapon for all damage, but we shouldn’t be forced to do that, we already have to switch weapons (the three melee damage types) or the gems you have in order to deal the most damage as possible, and they took out how people could run 2 of the same weapons so it can’t run for example 2 swords, 1 for carnelian gems, and 1 other gem sword for the highest damage against your target

also on a side note to aeonra, my healer friend is going paladin (tank healer), always has been since the beta, the problem is, I have to hear how I can’t hold agro each and every time we play together, he pulls it with 1 spell and is going to have to swap to a sword and shield, why we were grinding together, and he already has 300 FOC and some extra into CON, you should be able to be pretty decent at both and hold your stuff comparably to those who go full one way or the other, also in heavy armor, no gem, from just healing he’s generating as much agro as a tank WITH gems, why would he want to run light armor for increased healing, increased agro gen and be 1 tapped, and as said before once he gets the agro even if he runs around neither I or the mage friend can’t pull it off of him, even when he stops healing why he switched to sword and shield

all of this is why I’m saying they need to change it in some how, and I’ve already suggested a few reworks above, holding agro is gated by using carnelians and locks out at least 2 playstyles because of this, why I was giving feedback about it in the first place

16

let me also just put this out there as someone mentioned getting hit reduces threat level, this doesn’t appear to be true, again going back to skysong temple, there is a named enemy there which I swear was gold but looking at one of the interactive maps it appears to be silver, I know it starts with a V and that’s about it, but point is, my healer friend got the agro after healing me up as I had agro before, it didn’t stop until he was dead, the enemy then went and tagged the mage and dropped him, I had to go hide behind a wall (it didn’t move thankfully) before running and going to stun it so I could get the healer or the mage up to go get the other while I was still holding agro, we eventually finished it off, but we almost had to go back through the entire place again to get to it agro doesn’t drop when you get hit, in fact getting hit my enemies drops attack inputs and skill inputs, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been running solo and I die because enemies gang up and I can’t hit them (may partially be because of lag as well, but mainly when they hit me) and skills wont go off either, and I eventually drop, and then forced back to settlement or a camp nearby

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I don’t think getting hit reduces aggro.

Perhaps what was mentioned was referring to how if you taunt a mob who is in the process of doing a move on someone else, the mob will finish its attack and only then will turn to you. So, yeah, once it hits its victim it’ll go to the taunter (and thus that person loses aggro after being hit).

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ok fair point, that’s probably what was ment to be said, and not what I was thinking which was “as you get hit, your threat goes down”

but this does loop back to the agro system being wonky as can be, as if I was to taunt (should I go carnelians) the enemy shouldn’t keep going and then come after me, it should turn right back around to me, not keep going, tag someone else, and then come back to me

let me also go back to a previous point I made with how every other play style has easy access but the tank and bruiser play styles are gated by the carnelian gems

for a ranger (ranged dps) all you need to really do is equip a bow or musket and go mostly DEX build. Mage? mostly or all INT and fire staff, ice gauntlet, or void gauntlet. healer? mostly or all FOC and a life staff or void gauntlet. melee dps? any melee weapon and mostly or all STR or DEX, whichever the weapons scaled off of more.

but tank or bruiser? for tank you need mostly CON and are forced to get the carnelian gems for holding agro. for bruiser you can take a tad bit of a hit to CON for more STR or DEX (melee weapon dependent), but still run into the problem of forced to get a carnelian gem on 1 weapon at least to hold the agro. how about paladin? mostly FOC or CON which ever you want, a life staff, and a melee weapon you want to off tank with, but… you dont need a carnelian gem here, as you can easily just heal and boom there’s the threat you need for about the remainder of the fight as again like I’ve said at least 3 times now, no matter how much my mage friend or myself attack the enemy, we can’t pull the agro off, well after the healing output stopped. agro only changed once my healer friend went into basically, what I like to call (because I’m used to it), “fight for your life” (borderlands reference minus the being able to move and attack) and he had to wait to be picked up

There has to be some way that the agro system can be changed to make playing any sort of class you want to play easier, and not force you to get specific things in order to play how you want. make it based on distance, max HP, agro resets on stuns, or something, I can’t think of anything else, but there has to be something either the community or the dev team (if they see this post) can think of to change how it works, I get that healers shouldn’t be agro free, but if the average healing output of my healer friend in heavy armor is 7k, and you generate 20 threat per 100 hp healed, that’s 1400 threat right there right there, how much damage needs to be done to have more threat than a healer like that, even considering that AGS has nerfed them into the ground and want’s to try and force them into light armor and generate even more agro with their heals.

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The game isn’t designed to let you tank while doing large DPS and that’s a pretty traditional MMO design. I don’t expect that to change.

To tank you just need (at minimum) a particular gem slotted in any weapon. To heal you need a whole weapon. Maybe tanks have it easy! But seriously, while tanking could use an overhaul, adding damage to tanks is probably not gonna happen. It shouldn’t. Who would play anything else?

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well… let me ask this, have you ever played league of legends or dota 2? if you have, have you ever noticed how some champions or heroes have a good bit of HP and can deal a ton of damage? lets take darius for example from legaue of legends, he’s a wall, and hits like truck, but he can still easily get taken out should the enemy marksman (ranger basically) builds a tiny bit of armor pen, and stand as far back as possible, what about someone like chogath or maphite (also both league) mage bruisers (scales off of what in new world would be INT) same way to take them out

now take this logic to new world, I want to be a bruiser, a wall and someone who hits like a truck, if I was to go into PVP, all the enemy would need is a bit of armor pen/bypass, something AGS would need to add, could easily do it when dual daggers get added. but in PVE you face enemies who go up to I think 6 levels above our current cap, have like a million hp, and need a whole group to face all with the right gear, and if you “dont deal damage” you dont get anything when the enemy dies, my healer friend has run into the contribution problem in fights even against corrupted (life staff has an arcane damage on top of the nature he does 1200 average on hit) and guess what, they can hit like trucks as well, they dont just absorb damage, they dish it out as well.

what I basically want to do is the same thing as my healer friend, off tank, but I need to be able to hold agro first. and to answer the question “who would play anything else?” there are plenty of play styles available which can cater to what everyone want’s to play, bruisers would be strong but there are counters, just like in any moba (which new world apparently was basically before the community asked for PVE [let me clarify, from what I was told it was an mmo, with no PVE and all PVP, so you grind resources from the wild, and increase your skills off of that, there was no PVE at all, and at the moment it’s kind of still PVP focused, and not PVE or both, they’re focused on the PVP which is why there are so many nerfs and buffs]) it would just take implementation

21

I would like to think a clearer indicator of aggro is not too much to ask for.

There are instances where the aggro does not make sense even with the devs explanation.

  • Tank initiated a mob, the mob was triggered but directly ignored tank and went for me (healer)
  • In Ebon, a named enemy locked onto me and stayed aggroed to me with a dps and tank hitting it until they killed it.
  • Mobs spawn, they will mass blitz me no matter who was closer.

If a healer can generate aggro equal to a tank with carmel gems, I don’t quite agree with that. However, I’m not for the idea of healers having 0 aggro or the least aggro either. I simply want an eventual better system or indication of aggro. I can understand if a player b-lines a healer in PvP, but an AI is not a player, for the 600+ hours of playing, it sure seems like the AI favors attacking healers. I have ran Calming IV on gear before it never made a difference in my opinion. There are of course instances where a tank can maintain aggro so it ultimately I digress it falls on skill & gear. I accept the aggro bonus without carmel Calming IV and rather run diamond gems and heavy armor. The 30% healing bonus is just not enough of an incentive to be in light. It hasn’t effected as much as the nerfs in some parts of the kit. It works for me, I can still heal incredibly high & fulfill my role as healer. (just means a little more work And nudge dodging)

In regards to his case of bruiser: Realistically yes, traditional mmos don’t really give tanks the power to deal insufferable amounts of damage which in new world is probably better that they don’t because it seems like PvP and PvE are too close to one another.

In PvE I think there can be leeway on the role without breaking the tradition. “Gated” I suppose is referring to the Requirement that you must have a carmel gem to be recognized as Tank. I think that limits the ability to build a playstyle that is tailored to you but I also like the challenge of denying the requirement.

I also think Axt’s attempt to be a (Bruiser) can be done but there will be compromises in terms of Raw Dps / Health. It will never have the true both worlds, but it makes the game more fun in my opinion to figure out a way anyhow.

22

If you put a persistent heal on anyone before the fight starts, the mob will attack you until the tank does a taunt. Could that be what’s happening?

There is a clear indicator of if you have aggro or if you don’t (but not of who has it if it’s not you)–the red border on the name. The taunt icon means it’ll swap back to the tank once it finishes what it had already started when it got taunted (usually smacking the healer :stuck_out_tongue: ). Like us, they can’t cancel actions.

There are a lot of players doing the bruiser aggro-magnet thing. They’re using carnelians and losing a little DPS for it.

PvP is where carnelians have no purpose…

23

I don’t always start with Sacred ground, the aggro will trigger regardless if I do or don’t.

That’s not good enough of an indicator. I would much rather prefer it as a debuff on the row of buffs / debuffs above the Hp bar.

regardless that there’s a lot of players running it, I don’t agree that tanking has to be locked to a singular gem. Simple as that.

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Yes, every other MMO is the same.

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fair, but with new worlds conversion system? it should be lowered at least, or tanking shouldn’t be forcing you have the carnelian gem, at the current rate it’s 20 threat/100 hp healed and healers take agro like it’s nothing, you shouldn’t be forced to get a single gem as zent said, like a possible change is any skill that is currently “taunt capable” you could instead just have the taunt already, shield bach and shockwave for example have it, however you could add a carnelian gem and extend a taunt debuff, or something else similar

26

I agree about the gem…

There should be a built-in aggro increasing mechanic for tanks so they can have other options for the slot.

27

Having a taunt skill taunt (without a gem) would make a lot of sense. However most of the weapon skill trees would have to be reworked because most players use the same skills without wanting to taunt. Cooldowns would have to be changed too because without extra carnelian aggro, you’d have to rely just on taunts and there aren’t enough.

I’m not saying the current system is good. Really, it isn’t.

But there can’t be a built-in aggro mechanic for tanks because there aren’t any classes. So what determines if someone is a tank?

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Right, but if you changed and removed carnelian, for those skills then people couldn’t play DPS with sword and shield.

As it stands, you can techically make spear, Gaxe, hammer (maybe rapier?) All tank weapons as well.

I think what you are asking for is a separate tank skill tree, and that taking those skills make you a tank. I think that would be good, and I would like to see Shield as a separate weapon category with passives that determine if your other weapons become tank weapons - that way all you have to do is equip or unequip the shield to change if you are a tank.

Regarding stats: most PvE builds want at least 100 CON so they can risk mechanics that would otherwise 1 shot them. You are right, bruisers have the short end of the stick in needing more CON and STR. I would like to see tank stats for a Shield skill tree scale with CON.

Also regarding your League of Legends argument, Darius can’t tank for your carry. A tank in an MMO is closer to Braum or Thresh - you probably will have lower damage than a healer support by the end of the game.

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those who want to run dps can still do so, the skills are already split into tank/CC skills, and DPS skills, they would just have to switch to the tank or dps skill tree as they see fit, and to fit their play style, for example with sword and shield there’s the striking (I think that’s the name) and defender skill trees, yes some may want to go even more of a hybrid build and have some of the other skills on the other tree, however point still stands that they dont have to rework much as dps’s can still deal damage, and tanks would then be able to taunt and hold agro then

it’s just a simple take out the need to have a carnelian gem to taunt, and considering the calming buff doesn’t really do anything as zent said, AGS could take it out completely unless a good portion of the community wants to absolutely be the center of enemy attention and agro everything through threat, then they could take carnelians on their weapons still, but it would alleviate the need for them on tanks as a healer could pop heal, and the tank/bruiser follows up with their taunt skill, and take the agro back

with this AGS would need to fix how taunt works a little, and make it so that enemies dont keep running and hit their last target before going after the tank/bruiser, and instead they just turn back around to the tank/bruiser after the heal taunt combo, this is possibly the best change AGS could make and make taking easier to access for those that want to go that way

30

What about the other weapons with taunts? Maybe I’m a dabbler but I switch between any combo of S&S, hatchet, hammer, and axe. I sure don’t want to only be able to do my job with the dullest weapon in the game (that would be sword/shield).

I don’t think AGS needs to change how aggro works. There is supposed to be a cost to every advantage to keep things interesting. Things (stats especially) will likely be tweaked and balanced but I don’t think you’ll ever see what you’re after.

Most tanks would rather see improvements like Not Getting Shoved Up A Wall Until The Boss Resets.

31

ah so you run the same weapons as I do, got it, this actually would just change how the taunt skills work, instead of forcing you to get a carnelian gem in order to hold agro, you can freely taunt with the skills (shield bash, and defensive stance from S&S, reap from great axe, shockwave from hammer, feral rush from hatchet, vault kick from spear, and riposte from rapier, thats all that would change basically)

I get keeping things interesting however there are some things that need changed if they want everything to be pretty freely available, agro and how it works would be something, as well as how people can tank

each of those weapon has at least 3 other skills that dont have taunt, this would bring out some more diversity as far as skill go, because there are some skill which are used heavily, and others which I dont think are used at all out of the 6 skills across all of the weapons (from what I’ve seen/heard at least)

I would also like to see some improvements like that as well because I got killed like that at least once and it wasn’t funny, some other things like jumping (2 feet off the damn ground all the time/half the time not able to grab some ledges) and world collision are some other things that would be nice as well

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I don’t think a proper overhaul of aggro management could use the skills as they are just by removing the carnelian requirement. Perhaps a passive in each weapon to enable taunts? The carnelian also increases threat on all attacks though–just enabling taunts for “free” wouldn’t really be enough. It’s more than taunts.

(If skills currently with taunt option were simply made taunts without carnelian, you’d have a lot of unhappy campers. For example, in my limited experience, the best taunt in the game for range, duration, and Things That Also Happen is hatchet’s Berserk skill. I don’t know if people still use hatchet, but if there are any I suspect most like that skill and probably would prefer it not to taunt.)

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ok I see your point with instead of making it taunt free make it be able to taunt with a passive skill and not based on if you have a carnelian gem or not, and that is another possible thing AGS could do, but there are also other skills which I dont think are used all that often compared to others and it would (semi) force getting other skills which dont taunt, and I dont think are used very often if they dont want to taunt and become the center of attention (though this doesn’t matter in solo play which AGS has been trying to stop with a passion)

also since taunts set your threat at a % above the max threat of your group, this would mean you technically can pull an enemy back, however I do think when it ends the enemy would still go after whoever has the most threat technically unless that gets overhauled as well as like I’ve said before my healer friend for 15 mins was running around the area, hardly getting hit, and not healing at all and nothing me or my mage friend could do, would pull the enemy off of him up in skysong temple in ebonscale

also with that hatchet skill, I mean that’s kind of the point of the skill, you roar, become immune to all forms of cc or at least knockback, and kind of just go ham, 20% extra damage, you get increased move speed, you remove all CC at the start, you gain a portion of your hp back every 4 seconds (up to 30%) and you become unstageable and you cannot be interrupted when attacking (meaning enemies attacking you doesn’t interrupt your attack) not to mention at the bottom of that skill tree, you get an ability which allows you to defy death, come back at 50 hp and are immoral for 3 seconds until you can get healed

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