January PTR changes look terrifyingly bad

Are you implying all B2P games refunds customers when they shut down servers?

If you bought it on steam:
As per Steam Refund Policy, you can request a refund within 14 days of purchase. Also, the game must not be played for more than 2 hours if you meet these conditions you can get a refund within 7 days.

I know and that’s not what I’m talking about

We are talking about consumer law here when the company shuts down a game they sold to paying customers.

Warhammer (WAR)

Vangaurd Saga of heroes (this one really tanked, launched so not ready, a lot of players don’t really know what a bad launch is lol. This one did have housing that was very good, a great large land mass that was interesting… other cool stuff… but lacked content, sound familiar?)

Little off-base but Fallout 76.

I recent semi-success is Albion Online. Though think it is way down again now. When I played it I thought for sure it would fail but they actually listened and made good changes. The game grew. Think it had 50k at some point.

Some others, really too long a list. MMOs seem to usually fail, only early on did they do well and then WoW came along. Since then, not many big successes. ESO, GW2, Lineage, SWG, some others.

Bottom line, the trend due to how they are adding ‘content’ will slowly dwindle the population. That is just what happens.


I know, i am just agreeing with you. Plus hit reply on the wrong post. lol

Maybe you should read that end user agreement and the terms of service. Online game play can change at a moments notice. Legally they wouldn’t have to refund you a dime.


We have a legal minimum of 2 year guarantee in EU and 3 years in Sweden.

Try tort and contract law go back and read the disclaimers you agreed to prior to buying and playing and than logging into their servers. All you bought was the ability to use their servers to access a game. You actually don’t “ own “ anything. It is at best an open lease with no option to renew at any given time.

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We may also terminate your right to use the Games at any time, without compensation or notice to you.

Section 5.3 Termination.

If you’re playing, you clicked that you agreed to their terms of use.


Again, we as paying customer have legal rights. You can’t make contracts that are worse than the basic legal consumer rights. Well you can, but they are not legally valid.

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By all means, go for it.

Just keep it mind it will be a solo endeavor because you can’t class action them as outlined in 5.7

5.7 Disputes; Limitation of Liability. Any dispute or claim arising from or related to this Agreement or the Games is subject to the class action waiver (or other applicable dispute resolution terms), governing law, disclaimer of warranties and limitation of liability, and all other terms in the Conditions of Use. You agree to those terms by using the Games. You may also be entitled to certain consumer protection rights under the laws of your local jurisdiction. Without limiting the applicable sections of the Conditions of Use regarding our liability, our or our licensors’ aggregate liability to you for damages under this Agreement with respect to any claim will not exceed the amount you paid for the Game and In-Game Items. However, if your claim for damages is related to any change, restriction, suspension, or termination of your account or inability to use a Game or any In-Game Item, and results from our determination that you violated this Agreement or any Game code of conduct, then we and our licensors’ have no liability to you for damages under this Agreement. The laws of some jurisdictions, including jurisdictions in the European Union, do not allow the limitation of liability. If these laws apply to you, you may have additional rights.

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Just to be 100% clear. You can never make a legally binding contract that is worse for the consumer than the basic legal consumer rights we have. It doesn’t matter what TOS you point to. We have basic legal protection that always override any terms of service.


I think a lot of people will run the mutated versions. People, myself included, have asked for difficulty keys (orbs) for some time to crank up the difficulty and rewards. But; when I asked I also asked them to do away with regular orbs after your first orb-mandatory run through an expedition…and sadly that’s not what it looks like is happening.

Based on what I’ve read I don’t see a need for legendaries except for likely the last couple of difficulty levels. But with 10 different diff levels there should still be something for everyone.

  • This system is intended to rotate through a unique combination of Expeditions and Mutations each week, with 10 difficulty levels per Expedition Mutation. Players will be challenged to climb the ladder, with the aim of eventually reaching the max difficulty.
  • Please be advised that “Recommended Gear Score’” levels for a Mutated Expedition is important, as it directly factors into enemy scaling — and by consequence, your chances of success.

I’m happy about the mutation concept, and I think it will lend more than a little spice to endgame PvE in the way Mythic dungeons do for WoW. I believe they’ll get a lot of play.


Facts, people need to get fired.


At best - given the class action waiver you agreed to - you’re going to hire a lawyer, take on Amazon’s legal army, and maybe - maybe - get a refund of your $40US purchase price plus legal fees if you prevail.

While I’m no longer personally invested, I’m always up for good discussion!

I’m willing to wager a standard kitted 600gs player is probably more than enough for the first half of mutations (1-5). Either that, or the 600-625 scaling goes into some bonkers numbers territory that they’ll need to scale down for PvP.

You’re arguing with Americans that don’t have the same privileges EU has


I’m hopeful that L1-3 will be doable in lower end (520-550) lower end gear, 4-7 in the 580 range, and 7+ will expect (other than carries) people to bring the good stuff.

I’m sorry to hear that, amigo. :frowning:

As a Swede I will just contact the Swedish Consumer Agency and they will handle that for me. We have very strong protection as consumers.

I could also send them an invoice, and when they don’t pay send that to the bailiff agency or sue them if they refuse to pay. I wouldn’t even need a lawyer because it’s a straight forward case. Pay some fees (around 150euro), add that to the total and then a judge will rule based in the law. They can throw as many lawyers they want at the 40euro case but it wouldn’t change a thing and they would never be able to get the cost recovered even if I lose.

But this is all so silly. We are paying customers and we have basic customer rights. If a company sells us a product and then this product doesn’t work anymore we have a legal right to get it fixed or get a refund.

What makes this even more silly is that if the population is very small the costs of running servers is also very small. And it’s freaking Amazon. They became big by providing good service to customers.

This whole idea of shutting down a game that is very popular is ultra weird. I mean even if the game loses 80% of the concurrent players, again, it would still be a fairly popular and profitable game to keep running. There are over 10000 games in steam and New World is in the top 0,1% in popularity.