I donât disagree, but what can we do? Its less realistic they scrap all of the last years combat developments and return us back to an older combat system, swap hitstun with hitslow or hitinterrupt and retune from there.
Too many passives and perks and other bloat now sit on top of this system. Only thing we can do is try to keep the nerf/buff cycle in check by redirecting those topics towards the underlying mechanics and design of the combat system and how their interplay is forcing a particular weapon into or out of the meta.
Otherwise it will always yoyo back and forth with no real stability because the underlying mechanical and design issues are still showing flaws with unfun gameplay results.
Any ranged user in any MMORPG or even MOBAâs for that matter, when caught are pretty fucking dead.
New World was the only game with the exception that melee catching a ranged user in light was a laughable situation.
Thereâs literally no change to mobility if you donât get hit. If you get hit by a melee then you were playing too close anyway. Ranged has ALWAYS been about positioning and now that positioning matters, all of a sudden itâs in a bad spot? I can still get 3 tapped by a musket, I watched a bow user 2 tap a light armor melee and I still see ranged users dominate in kills.
Itâs fine. Just like the stamina nerf, people screamed, âthis game is awful now, itâs clunky.â
That ship sailed and literally everyone lived and weâre all okay. This ship will sail too and people will start positioning better. This is what happens when your class gets nerfed and was overpowered. Itâs going to feel bad compared to before, it was OVERPOWERED. People will make adjustments and it will find itâs place again, just like the Stam nerf.
There are posts like this with every nerf. GA mains screamed at how bad Gravity well was after it got gutted. Guess what? Itâs still used and itâs still a staple in clump fights. It was brought to a levelled playing field and nobody screams, âGravity Well is trash,â because itâs not. Itâs just not overpowered anymore.
Itâs definitely trash compared to how it used to be.
If positioning was the only issue you might be correct, EXCEPT the games effective range is midrange within gap close of melee range for all RELEVANT gameplay objectives. The OPR scenario of long range snipes and open world is actively being addressed on the PTR right now.
Your premise hinges entirely on a 1v1 scenario of melee vs range. And EVEN then an intelligent melee knows how to flank and use their tools. Situational awareness not withstanding it was not impossible to catch a range player, it was easy for them to maintain kite though if you were just trying to W key into them.
Slows on range exists on 2 fundamental mechanical levels
Incoming damage from all sources not just melee autos. causing slow tag
Outgoing actions causing forced walk
The literal mechanics of the game are designed so that in any range vs melee scenario given time the melee can close gap, a range cant infinitely kite before that gap closes just on the latter mechanic outgoing actions causing forced walk. Slow tags from all sources increase the efficiency of gap close.
I not saying armor or melee changes were overpowered or overtuned. They brought balance to the kite vs catch equation.
I did say that kite vs catch is only 1 part of the combat equation. Kill secure window is the other That is where containment and release balance comes in.
Only people who dont play action combat games think Melee vs Range is designed to be a game of pure cat and mouse in which if the melee catches they win. Doesnt work that way and even this game wasnt designed to be that way.
If you want it that way then extend the overall effective range of all range weapons including mage autos and spells extend everything out to at least a 75m base. Then you can have your cat and mouse game.
Otherwise given most effective combat takes place inside 25-50m ranges especially group combat and wars then yes there needs to be a release valve on catch mechanic once caught. More so because the tools to catch within those ranges melee have far more of than range does to kite
No absolutely not. Ranged and magic is not supposed to stand toe to two with melee. Dodge and create space. Melee will ruin your day once they up in them guts. Thatâs just how it is
Funny cause Mage already plays an effective range thats within catch distance of melee and dex is being brought in closer.
Kite is purposefully designed so that any scenario in which a melee vs range kite/catch race happens mage cant orb walk to kite and dex can but only cause of innate passives and quirks with jumping. Otherwise they either disengage or if they orb walk while kiting; melee will catch them ITS LITERALLY DESIGNED THAT WAY.
So yes containment windows need to exists so release windows can occur. Thats just how it is when you want the game designed around mechanics that control your kite control for you instead of like how most games resolve it, a resource dependent haste mechanic (i think they are called sprints, do other mmos have those maybe on the hotbar on like a nominal cooldown?)
Either way some version of this will come what it looks like idk, probably shouldnât be on stamina bar since dodging and blocking are already used on that bar. But some form of resource management will be necessary to balance Melees having on hit STAGGER LITE
Itâs simply unfun to have melee slow you in perpetuity and why previous versions of similar mechanic types were removed to begin with
Reverse all this and i think light armor players might consider your idea
Youâve been talking about " balance " but the fact is you want to make your " heavy build " more imba.
I threw heavy a bone by saying no stam tax cause to me doesnt seem much reason to use heavy even with that equip load delay advantage compared to light and medium.
Can tax heavies too makes no matter to me.
The point is as long as there are mechanics that keep melee containment in check so there are windows of release there will be better combat balance and gameplay.
Interesting to see your logic though, that the feedback cycle on this forum largely is derived from players who dont look at combat balance as a whole simply look at it from their POV and demand changes based on what they play.
I donât main roles or weapons, that would be an utter waste of the fantastic freedom AGS gave us with Respec.
But they can, they might take some damage occasionally but it is entirely possible for someone to orb walk and kite. Melee have to orb walk in order to catch just as they do to kite.
I would come on here to spit all sorts of shit but Iâm not experienced with ranged. I have run light medium and heavy in pretty much all melee classes and I have to say, the balance is fine between them all.
Yes i agree but maybe you misunderstand or I wasnât precise in what i mean. The penalty on movement for mages results in a scenario in which orb walking results in the forced walk duration timer every time they use an auto or an ability which is again designed to help melee catch and reduce kite. Orb walks used to be weaved with light roll cancels, thats been removed and the distance reduced. Problem being is with slow tags from incoming damage sources there is multiple force slow sources before melee even gap close, specifically put in to help melee gap close.
Melee can match all of the tools mage has 1 for 1 but overall has more tools because #gap closers favors melee over #mage escape abilities.
I could argue this same balancing POV from the viewpoint of a mage and simply say just buff mages by removing the forced slow walk penalty so they arent being penalized from multiple sources of slows.
But that wouldnt fully resolve that range vs melee because this game isnt a pure catch and kill game or at least shouldnât play like one.
This game isnt like range in most games. The developers are moving range closer and closer and the nature of game modes puts effective range play very close to melee play.
For us to not touch melee at all with any sort of resource tax on auto attacks we would have to move the effective range of all range players out to about 75M and remove all penalties to move speed on outgoing attack, this way if a melee does catch then yes its catch and kill.
But that is not how the game is designed to be played in any meaningful PvP mode, maybe theres an argument for that in Open World and slightly in OPR but Open World PvP also has other variables to play with and OPR is being actively addressed on the PTR.
Keep in mind most of what we are talking about is pure 1v1 scenario balance. When you take the combined effects of group play then it becomes clear we are literally back to the place in combat where multiple melee can tag and perma snare any tagged target.
If this is intended then why remove stagger? It in effect the a lighter version of that but with none of the escape tools that system had. Itâs also on the portion of user input players least want affected; character movement. If it was instead an interrupt (flinch) that prevented outgoing ability and auto use that would still permit reposition and kite with their move keys while giving melee a way to hold by limiting their escape abilities and dodge inputs to regain space.
If the range can regain sufficient space to force a melee miss and not get interrupted they can now disengage and the kite vs catch game begins again. There has to be a window for that. That window shouldnt be so large that it never occurs and not so small that melee never kill secure. But there needs to be windows of kill secure and windows of escape in any confrontation between melee and range because the games design is tailored to ensure the melee will catch range given effective combat ranges for PvP objectives.
I just want to survive. I shouldnât be able to catch ranged, but at least with GS I can usually face tank it and run away. But know what would be nice? BEING ABLE TO DRINK A POTION. When I play light I can drink potions all day and night cause I have the escape to take it. I go to drink a potion in heavy and itâs stagger stagger stagger dead looooooooooooool.
That sounds terrible. 75m is a LOT farther than you think. Horns are only 40m and the back seat of horns can reach the point. From horns to point is MORE than enough range for anyone to mess with. Most people play at around 10m though, thatâs the issue. If they move to about 25 theyâre fine. 75m is a BIG stretch.
If you removed the walk penalty on attacking we would have the same issue as before. You could W key out of any engagement WHILE attacking. That is NOT balanced.
I would love to agree with you but these are God awful suggestions. Kite potential is already fine. If youâre referring to a specific set of melee weapons as a pair that make you unable to kite then thatâs good. Itâs called a counter. I hope you are not referring to melee weapons as a whole because it is completely false that any melee weapon can outpace any ranged user in the game.
Almost all weapons have ONE movement ability each.
All weapons have the same movement speed when not attacking
All weapons slow the wielder on attacks
You are wanting ranged players to S key their way out of every fight WHILE dealing damage? Thatâs fucking terrible gameplay.
Even most top down RPGâs have a stop movement upon attack.
V Rising does not and you really want that in New World?
I donât necessarily disagree with the premise that all builds (not just mages) should have to manage a resource used for damage/healing.
However, your proposal makes no sense. Ranged bow/musket users donât have a resource? What about mages who are frequently in melee range because their skills are half melee ranged?
Who gets shafted the most here are void gauntlet users, who now have to manage mana, stam for dodge, and apparently a new resource for void blade attacks.
I agree with both those assessments which is why i didnât suggest them. I said that if you didnt put a cap on melee tagging on slows in the current system which guarantee kill secures with no recovery windows THEN you would have to artificially extend the kite vs catch windows and gave some really crappy ways of doing it as examples of why its not the route to go.
AGS literally just spent months reducing that window, so reverting it would indeed be bad. Which is why the proposal has been on tuning melees ability to maintain lockdown contain and create windows of opportunity for escape.
All weapons do not slow the wielder on attack or more precisely melee is removed from that restriction by way of homing, assist, and lunge.
As to your statement about counters no im not referring to counters in any of this feedback. But counters in action combat games are generally a bad idea imo. Thats a disfunction of gear based combat systems in which matchups have hard counters.
Keep in mind much of the discussion of why fundamental combat systems are in and out of balance is because the base layer is modified through a series of perks, gears, abilities and passives that alter the base combat mechanics. They at times bend the limits of balance and often can break them. Which is why you want to limit their expression on the base mechanics as much as possible while making them meaningful enough that they provide skill expression.
A good functioning action combat system should on balance have matchups where there are favored matchups but still have enough room for user input to determine outcome. There should never be such a thing as hard counter in action combat games when designed correctly.
I appreciate the discussion and while i agree my suggestion may not be the best im not necessarily advocating for the implementation of it. Itâs strictly a vehicle to describe the problem.
As the saying goes when someone tells you theres a problem they are usually right, when someone tells you how to fix it they are usually wrong.
Im saying the problem is melee slow tagging is effectively a watered down version of stagger with none of the downsides or tools we previously had to mitigate it. My solution may not be the way to solve it but it is a problem that needs to be solved imo.
Wel the weapon does say it requires Intelligence and Focus
But you are not wrong, again i am merely describing an issue and feedback, my suggestion is one way to put an upper bound on melee on hit slow tagging which i believe is a unchecked watered version of stagger (on hit stun) without any of the counterplay options we had in the previous combat system to mitigate it.
I just think there needs to be an upper range or limiting effect. Id rather it be in direct player control like a stam tax, there is of course hard cap and diminish returns with a overcap threshold that results in a free cleanse kinda like free dodge roll with stagger. But even that would be a bit weird.
