My musings on Orbs

On my early morning walk to work, I often ponder and think about random things. This morning my mind turned towards tuning orbs. Specifically why they’re in the game, what they achieve and potential improvements.

My own feeling is that when expeditions were added, one worry was that people would constantly run them in order to obtain gear. For higher level expeditions this would also cause a character’s HWM to be levelled up much more quickly than intended. To this end, Tuning Orbs were added - not only would they give Stonecutting a second reason to exist and level, they would limit the number of runs possible and encourage players to group together (“I’ve an Orb, shall we run X?”). Orbs were given a very high creation cost, I’m guessing that somebody anticipated the group gathering resources together and passing them to one player to craft.

As anybody who’s DM’d a D&D game knows, all good ideas never survive contact with the player party. Rather than being a great group experience from Orb to expedition completion, they have instead become a bit of a bind. Players/companies with plenty of coin can purchase all of the component parts and then charge for slots on an expedition - or equally run the expedition as many times as they can make Orbs. Orbs are consumed upon entry to an expedition, so if the group aren’t able to complete it, the Orb is effectively wasted (which can cause bad feeling). The creation cost is also pretty high, so crafting Orbs off your own back isn’t a particularly enjoyable experience. The end result is that the general feeling is expeditions just feel like too much hassle to complete.

If I’m correct in my supposition (which I may not be in fairness), what can be done to improve this and make it feel a more enjoyable experience from start to finish? For me, the key part is that limiting the “loot” aspect from an expedition shouldn’t mean limiting the access to the expedition itself. Running an expedition because we fancy doing it should be a viable choice - NW is a game after all and the core reason for playing a game is enjoyment.

As a suggestion, my line of thinking is to change how Orbs actually work within the game. I’ll explain this “the wrong way round” as it’ll make more sense. Rather than being an entry cost, an Orb instead allows you to unlock each big chest after defeating each expedition boss. Rather than dropping loot, dropped items are instead added to the next chest. In a simplified form, Orbs become a personal resource that have a lower cost and can be sold/traded, but you can only hold a limited number at a time. There’s lots of variations on this too - maybe only epic/legendary items are placed in the chest for example.

Now a slightly more complicated version (bear with me on this one), is that each expedition has an Attunement Orb that’s obtained via a quest for each expedition. This Orb has a number of gem style “key” slots that corresponds to the number of boss loot chests, you fit Tuning Keys into a slot and those keys are craftable (plus tradable). Each time you open a chest, it consumes the corresponding Key. The limiting factor is that each key slot once used goes on a 12 hour cooldown before it can be filled in again. This would also open up the ability to reset the cooldown using a quest, Azoth etc.

Now there is an argument that you could move the loot into chests and simply have chests on a 12 hour cooldown. Personally I’m less keen on this because we already have far too many invisible cooldowns in the game. I also don’t think it’s unreasonable to have to do a certain amount of preparation to gain the most benefit from undertaking an expedition.

Arenas could equally use the same mechanic, although part of me says that a simple Orb/key for the entire party works OK - that said, I think the system I’ve brainstormed above prevents one issue where the number of Orbs you craft is directly linked with the amount of coin you have.

Interesting musing. I’ll respond by giving an analogy.

There’s a poker game that has a fantastic reward of 1 million. So now the dealer is calling for players to play, but to get a seat in the table, you gotta pay 10 mil. Not only that, there’s a chance that you won’t be able to finish the game and the 10 mil is thrown down the drain.

You can also start a game yourself, but you need to sew your own dealer suit with a sewing machine of your own making and that takes both time and money, let alone effort.

Now we can either ;

A) increase the reward so that its worth paying that 10 mil

B) get rid of the need to suit up and making your own sewing machine to deal for the game.

Not that good an analogy but I hope you get what I mean.

Thanks for your analogy, though I don’t quite understand how it relates to what I’ve said? My suggestion was that Orbs could be used to unlock chests rather than open up the expedition and that Orbs would have a lower creation cost and also be tradable. Your analogy feels like it relates more to the current way Orbs are used rather than my suggestion.

I think its about how absurd having to pay for an entry fee that’s essentially much more expensive than the reward itself.

Or the amount of effort, time and money that you have to have to even go in the dungeon itself.

Why gatekeep in the first place? What AGS need is for players to play the game, not limit game time.

What they should have done was to introduce mutations with all of the dungeons available, even the low ones, reduce the cost to about 10% of what it is now and make it that the orbs drop at each mutation so it acts as a organic gate keep, rather than making players jump through an obstacle course to gain entry.

Thanks for the clarification - I see where you were coming from. As to the why gatekeep, as I said in my original post my own view was that they didn’t want people constantly running it for drops. Rather than control the drops, the decision was made to control the access - the “problem” was fixed, but it formed a fairly hefty gateway.

One of the things that I feel hasn’t ever been clear is a picture of how “end game” should work - my belief is that the intention was that maximum GS should take 5 to 6 months to achieve (arriving in time for a new expansion perhaps). However I digress :slight_smile: In the current system rather than my suggestion, dropping the Orb cost and increasing the availability (i.e. no 7 day timeout), would likely be enough for most people. Refunding Orbs upon completion feels like a kick in the teeth if something goes wrong along the way, it’s why I suggested removing the Orb as an entry cost and making it a reward cost - why should one player be penalised if somebody else does something like leave mid expedition.

Arenas are dead content. Nobody does them because the effort/reward ratio, for the orb, simply isn’t there. What they should have done is:

Portals → Arena → Expedition

With no timegates and with reduced cost of orbs so running a few portals would be enough to access an Arena boss. Then the Arena boss drops the orb to the expedition. Much more fun game loop than the current grind.

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My issue with this is, it makes leveling stonecutting and getting a set basically useless.

  • “But you got pristines to sell”

Most expensive pristine I’ve ever sold was 300g for a Carnelian and this was at the first month of the game in a server that peaked 200 and people that sold pristines didnt make much of these due to quints not being dropped in the world.

Any other profession can net you a huge chunk of money but even Runestones are cheaper than any other material available.

I craft these orbs weekly and haven’t feel the so called excruciating grind for this lol, most mats I gather them by simply playing the game and walking around the world. If anything 2 days before my cd I check what Im missing and just go and get them. (Specially corrupted stones, changing with new PTR).

Having the orbs get the chests in cd is a good idea, though. Something like “Charged X tubing orb” that can allow you to open all the chests and have the charges recover every 24h sounds good but there are problems that would need to be addressed.

Most people cry because this dgns have some of the best equipment in game but cannot get it. Not all of them are great and the drop rate isn’t that great either which require you to run the dgn more than once and this will go on even with free entries which would mine the deop rate even further.

This will also cause people to start spamming the dgns and do nothing else because you just need to go in and that’s it.

Let’s not lie to others saying “I want challenging fights” because most will simply go for the most effective way to get the best items. Even I myself have done solo runs or farmed single named bosses for expertise raising. And this won’t change, people will always aim for the shortest way to get better.

Back to dgns, expertise drops would need to be reviewed as well. It would be even fastee than before to raise your expertise by just running lazarus which is super short and less challenging than Amrine after you’ve done it once.

With free entrances, drop rates would be bombarded as well. Luck exists in so many ways and you will also enrage some who spent lots of gold, time on farming the orb gated dgns. And with nerfed drop rates, why would you spam a dgn if you can come cry to the forums at how bad is the drop rates?

I agree with the person above who mentioned needing completing arena orbs to craft dgn ones. Although I would have the arenas drop the cores instead of the full orb.

Orbs are a bad design choice for normal mode dungeons. They need to be removed, not reduced price, not made tradable, just gone all together.

Stonecutting was one of the reasons I suggested a personal Orb plus being able to trade them - it was only a rough idea and I’m positive that it could be improved on whilst adding something tangible into the game rather than what we currently have.

I personally don’t think expeditions should be a free for all. My thinking on loot being locked in chests is that the drop roll would still be done (so luck would count), but rather than dropping on the floor, the item would instead stack into the next boss chest. When you open it (with your Orb/Key/Biscuit) you’d receive all the items, along with expertise bumps if you got any. Orbs/Keys not always being available would control the loot rewards, but you’d still be able to gain XP, weapon levelling, complete quests, improve mutated run score etc.

I do like the idea that Arenas drop components that can be used in expedition Orbs. This type of multi-layered crafting can be really enjoyable if added properly and is something that would be ace to see added across all professions. Maybe we need Gold Settings for some Orbs and maybe some weapons need a specific Cut Gem as a component. Could even have new cuts!

I actually think Stonecutting has a really weird place in the game. It’s technically a refining profession, but makes items that can be used outside of another profession, so it’s more of a hybrid. It’s also the only profession I can think of that forms an active gatekeep in the game purely because Orbs are BoP. In fact just changing that would bring Stonecutting more in line with other professions.

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