PVP arenas 1v1 is a must I think.
This thread is being created in response to the unwanted controversy that is now derailing @BRADLEY thread.
In this thread, I want to talk about why the majority of the playerbase is angry over AGS showing favoritism to the minority pvp playerbase, why NW has lost so many players over this issue, and what a quick and easy fix could end all the drama, and lead to everyone having a much better time playing NW.
The whole thing started with one little part of BRADELY’s thread, where he posted that he, a mainly pvp player, thought that the PvP flagging bonus was a good thing.
As a PvE player, I have an entirely different take on what that mistake was, and I’ll set the stage for this threads topic by laying some ground work.
On launch, New World was advertised as a game where player could play in either PvP or PvE mode, and that, if folks didn’t want to “Flag Up” for pvp, they would never have to.
Now to me, as a paying customer, I expect to have a playing field that is level and unbiased, as the basis for any game, and feel that this doesn’t need to be expressly stated, because it is a self evident truth, and a fundamental right, as all paying customer are created equal, at least in games that are trying to get and keep all their paying customers happy.
Now on to the Undisclosed info about NW.
New World, unfortunately, was originally written as a PVP only game, and when they realized that such a game just wouldn’t sell, Amazon Game Studio went back to the drawing board, and remade the game to be both PvP and PvE.
What they didn’t do, was build the game up around a fair and level playing field, for all players/paying customers, but instead, kept some CORE GAME MECHANICS for the bad old PvP only days. These mechanics ensured the PvP minority the chance at ingame riches such as the PvE folks could only dream about. I say “A Chance at ingame riches”, because these riches were only ever going to be going to PvP players, and only those that held one or more of the eleven claimable territories would be recieving them, in the form of ingame taxes and fees.
Territorial ownership is a strictly PvP mechanic, and the income from having these are up to 1,000,000’s of Gold per week, for the owners. Player are divided into three colored factions, and within any given faction, there are vast numbers of ingame companies, which are limited to 100 players each. Only one company can own a territory, although (Apparently) a single company can own more than one territory. I personally don’t play any pvp content, so those that do, are most welcome to come into this thread and explain how this functionality works, as well as some of the problems with it, so anyone new to the game can have a better idea of how things work, and why the pvp favoritism is so offensive to the rest of the playerbase/paying customers.
So, right from day one, unknown to everyone that bought and paid for this game, thinking as I myself did, that we all were in for a game based upon a level playing field, that was never the case. Since launch, there have been several additional ways that the small minority of the playerbase that is the pvp crowd, have been given (unfair and undeserved) advantages over the majority of the paying customer playerbase.
Now we are going to see the specific “straw that broke the camels back” idea that really got folks up in arms, which is called the “flagging bonus”.
Others that are wiser and more knowledgeable than I could perhaps drop by, and share exact dates when things were done to discriminate against the paying customers that choose not to play pvp, and, let us remember, this demographic is the majority of the playerbase.
So, in addition to giving pvp players the chance to get rich, and only the pvp players, and thus the game designers thereby snubbed the rest of the playerbase, they also initially gave pvp players +10% experience points when playing flagged for pvp. But then, in addition to these two goof’s, the Dev’s decided to double-down on this policy, and added, in addition to the already mentioned favoritism, a new bonus, of [+10% loot luck, and +30% gathering luck], and this is where many folks left the game, having had quite enough already with this kind of thing in New World. To this day, this discriminating behavior continues at AGS, with the Dev’s themselves going online and trying to justify this nonsense as being ok.
So not only are the rest of the paying customer playerbase aware that they are being cheated out of a level playing field, the Dev’s and the minority pvp playerbase keep trying to sell the rest of us on how this really isn’t unfair, nor discrimination, and blah, blah, blah.
I’ll use a mildly obscene example to drive home my point about this particular offense against fair play and a level playing field for all.
AGS basically said something like this:
Hey, pvp players, if you flag up, we will give your characters [The pvp flagging bonuses].
Now, let us break this down.
A (small) portion of the paying customer playerbase is being singled out.
A condition is being set.
A reward for that condition is being offered.
Now for my mildly obscene example:
In order to make it clear just how offensive both the cheating of the majority of the paying customer playerbase is, as well as all the attempts to try and talk like it isn’t offensive, nor discriminatory…
Let us change some of the items to this.
Change out “pvp players” with “female employees”
Change out “if you flag up” with “if you work topless”
Change out “[flagged bonus]” with “50% more pay”
I think that now would be a good time to let folks see quotes from all over this forum, where pvp/Dev’s attempt to defend what is going on, and why their arguments really don’t hold water.
I invite anyone that has ever been offender by all the BS that pvp folks try to defend their undeserved and unneeded advantages have used over this extremely divisive issue, to copy past the relevant portions here is this thread, so everyone that reads this sees for themselves just how long this has been going on, and why it needs to go.
In the mildly obscene example I provided, I think that 99% of folks are going to see that the idea in question would not only never have been put into effect, but would never even have gotten past the talking stage.
Now that that is dealt with and exposed, what would I do about this bad and getting worse situation?
Quite simply, is a game with as great a potential as New World has, doomed to failure because of bad game design (the PvP core not being eliminated before launch) choices initially, and then further bad choices in game management, or can we get to a place where the game can have a good, profitable future, where the majority of paying customers are NOT supposed just to look the other way while the ingame economy is being tipped in the favor of the small pvp minority, and where everyone has a level playing field?
I think that, yes, New World can easily achieve customer satisfaction in this matter, by just doing one thing.
Offer us a simple choice, during character creation, on tailoring our gaming experience to our own preferences, by just this one optional new feature.
PvP or not to PvP.
If a paying customer wants some pvp content on the server that they want to play on, they could select the ‘PvP’ option, and that would result in that particular character being created and played exclusively on servers that allow pvp, like the ones that we currently have, and with all the problems that exist because of AGS trying to get more people to play pvp.
If a paying customer instead wants nothing to do with pvp, they could then select the ‘not to PvP’ option, and that would result in that particular character being created and played exclusively on servers that have no type of pvp content at all. Right now, folks that don’t want anything to do with pvp, have no choice to play without all the negative effects that are in place at the moment.
Now, this thread here is to focus on the the very divisive issues within the NW community, do to all the game breaking foolishness of prioritizing one small part of the paying customer playerbase, at the expense, and enragement, of the majority.
Offering the majority of the paying customer playerbase the option to not have anything to do with all the issues of trying to get pvp working, balancing pvp weapons, and most of all, not trying to force more players to flag up when they clearly have no interest in doing so.
PvP is a mess, it needs a lot of work, and this isn’t going to be fixed quickly. To keep new world alive, we need the majority of the paying customer playerbase to be able to play and enjoy this (Potentially Great) game, without having to be involved in this process.
What say you folks?
I agree, and welcome thoughts on what PvP needs to be made the great and engaging fun that it could be, but for this thread, I’m really focused on getting feedback on giving PvE players the freedom to opt out of all the things that AGS has been doing wrong, trying to get more folks to play pvp, and unbalancing the playing field in the process, and just getting to enjoy playing New World without pvp, if they so choose.
I would point out, that my idea would allow for new world to have all the currently favoritism towards pvp that it currently has (and more besides), and while also giving the rest of us a way to play and enjoy New World without getting angry over all of that stuff, so a win-win situation. Can this be other than a good thing?
I actually disagree on a lot that you have said. I’m a PvX player. I’ll do both bits of content without complaint. They marketed the game as a PvX game not so much a choose either side of the table (which you still can do outside of owning territories… which is fair). The things I’ve noticed is the PvE crowd plays the content and moves on, as opposed to pvp players that will stay there as long as there are some small updates here and there. Amazon also owns twitch, which if you look most of the top games being played are pvp. Moeny earned there is still gonna be a win by Amazons standards. I dont understand the hate towards the pvp side of things to be honest it wouldn’t be a bad move on their part business wise anyway.
That being said you can legitimately play the game as a 100% pve player. Wanna own a territory? join a clan, you can become part of the consuls simply by offering the clan armor and helping supply them for wars. I’ve literally seen players do this so they can at least be apart of the “process”. The whole flag argument is just well… petty. I know you don’t understand the risk Vs. reward system but it’s are great way to promote features and the buff is fairly small that it hardly even bothers the side that doesn’t want to flag.
Most games have updates for PvE and people will stick around in between for those updates if there’s actual content to do and things to achieve. So many other games that have stood the test of time and still have strong long-term communities invested in the game are PvE content like housing and decorating, collecting fashion and mounts and pets, and and working toward achievements in both solo content and group content like raids.
And because server / game environment is not in the control of players (unlike the settlement system here), there is stability necessary for people to really put down roots and stay for the long term – just like in real life, peace and stability are necessary for community and prosperity.
Of course players do move on when the game no longer appeals. If the content is crap or there’s no new content.
For PvP there is literally never any new content. Whatever shows up they just go and bash each other’s heads in. It’s the same grind over and over.
If anything major changes it’s because of some new combat addition or imbalance and they rush to the new meta to exploit it.
Because PvE is busy playing the game, and are not really interested in watching people play the game.
And look at what TYPE of PvP they are watching – actual COMPETITIVE PvP. Not the shishow in New World.
No one’s watching Mortal Online or Crowfall or other failed OWPVP proven-to-have-flopped concepts.
This is what needs to happen to OWPVP
Solves a lot of issues, closes a lot of exploits.
Provides the stable game environment that’s needed for a server to retain a player base.
Fair enough, and let’s get down to it.
In this thread, the choice is to PvP or not to PvP, as the topic is to make the case for having servers that are split on the whole pvp content. In the context of this thread, then, you are a pvp player whenever you opt to create a character on a server that allows pvp content, and PvE player whenever you opt to create a character on a server that does not allow PvP content, and only a PvX player is you choose to create characters on both types of servers.
So, that being said, would you now call yourself a PvP player, or a PvX player?
They did indeed market the game, as one that you could do either, or both, types of content, that is both correct and true. However, is it also both correct and true, that they did not disclose that any paying customers that choose not to play pvp, were going to be excluded from many of the core game mechanics, and saddled with many disadvantages, all of which were imposed as a way to favor pvp players over non-pvp players.
For myself, I think your points have already been answered, but I would ask, how many characters do you have? Both my allowed USEast region character slots are filled with 60th level guys, and One of my USWest regional character slots is (I think) 42nd level now, so…
Well, as to that…
I don’t hate PvP per say, but I do HATE Player Killers with a passion!!!
PvP should be understood to mean player versus player in a mutually consenting context, where not only both players have merely ‘flagged for pvp’, but are actually interested, geared for, and skilled in, pvp combat. Any attempt to get folks to flag up without ensuring the above, I take a very dim view of, as it can only result in enabling the most toxic of toxic players, the PK’ers, who care nothing for a good clean, fair fight, but just want to (mis)use the NW game platform and go around killing everyone else’s little digital characters, and consent be damned!
So, what brain dead thing did the Dev’s put into NW? A way to ensure that the PK’ers would have a multitude of victims to inflict their pent up, impotent-in-real-life frustrations upon! Way to go, Dev’s.
And what result did this have? Legit pvp got a real black eye, PK’ing made many folks that had been dumb enough to flag up, quit the game entirely (others were smart enough not to flag up, but seeing the direction NW was heading, left the game forever without bothering to flag up), and for every paying customer that has left the game, how many have they told their friends, “… Hey, if you don’t like PvP, don’t buy NW, as it’s bent on pvp…”, and so, by word of mouth, many times the former player are never going to give NW a chance, because of an earned bad reputation for discrimination against the non-pvp paying customer playerbase. And the longer this foolish situation goes uncorrected, the worse it is going to get.
But that is only just a part of it, really. Another part is the way the pvp crowd tries to justify/deny the truth about this absurd attempt to favor the pvp paying customer of all others. Please, don’t tell me that discrimination really isn’t discrimination because [insert any and every bone headed argument ever thought of by pvp folks here] reasons. If you give one paying customer more for the same action as another, just because they are playing flagged (and thus playing the way they actually prefer to play anyway), then you are guilty as charged of discrimination.
And the most enraging thing, they could have avoided all of this, by simply giving players a choice:
To PvP or not to PvP!
Sexist, men should be able to be topless for 50% more pay too.
Lol, I knew it…
Im a PvX player but i think this analogy is abit disingenuous.
Change out “PvE players” with “male employees”
Change out “if you wear luck gear” with “if you work bottomless”
Change out “full luck gear” with “shorter working hours”.
Stuff like this is… ludicrous and it dilutes and distracts the message you are trying to push. PvP players =/= female employees nor are PvE players = male employees.
I definitely agree with this. HOWEVER, many of that game mechanics are being look into and some have been changed for PvE focus. But yeah, largely, the main game mechanics are pvp focused and its unfortunate that launch didnt have more PvE game mechanics.
It doesnt change however that the game in itself is gearing towards being a hybrid of PvP and PvE. While Wars and settlement governance are PvP, gear progression was initially locked under PvE, be it open world or dungeons. So no matter what, you still had to go through PvE to get better gear for PvE.
If we as players keep drawing lines between PvP and PvE, then all we do is just dividing the player base and make the game weaker. We should have been pushing for a better story line, better quest mechanics, a more coherent MSQ on the PvE end.
Conversely, we need a more coherent faction dynamics, more PvP open world action in terms of smaller scale battles, better gear progression. It would do both sides a huge favour if we didnt push each other aside and use our brain resources to see how we can best tie in these two disparate worlds.
I am a PvE player as I’m still levelling up to 60 to participate in Wars and OPR, and for me NW is my chill game as I mainly play Destiny2 PvP.
My opinion of the flag bonus is a risk/reward. If you want the extra luck then keep your head on a swivel! From the many threads regarding the luck system it’s seems there are problems with it’s mechanics, functionality and understanding. Possibly this risk/reward flagging needs to be tweaked in order to promote this correctly, could be that a luck bonus is not the best reward. I don’t flag as I just like to chill when I’m out and about gathering etc.
There are plenty of really good suggestions I have seen in threads trying to come up with a way to promote open world PvP without forcing everyone to opt in but still create enough of an interest for players to seek it. One example I read was holding a certain capture zone and once within a radius a player would be auto flagged. You would get a warning/grace period before you are auto flagged. This zone would not be fixed every time so there is no map locking to PvP only, that ensures that anything in that area can be gathered/mined elsewhere or at another time.
Perhaps if the open world PvP was done in this way and proved popular by both PvP and PvE players then flagging isn’t required anymore? Keeps both playerbase’s fair which I think was one of your key points from your post.
Arenas are defiantly needed and will surly boost PvP content if they manage it properly with scoreboard and reward systems. I look forward to having a few goes myself to try and hone my skills. I’d like to also see wagers added to the Open World, where you could bet someone and item or gold and duke it out in or around a settlement and others could watch Maybe not allow spectators to bet as this could then get into exploiting territory and people deliberately loosing etc
I would not like to be locked on a server where it’s PvP or PvE only. It’s nice to have a choice in the moment. Maybe I just want a chilled night so it’s PvE or maybe I fancy getting sweaty and doing PvP Not sure if in your post you had the idea of once you select PvP or PvE for that character then it’s locked.
I am not sure how to fix issue with territory ownership but it would be nice to have PvE content have a bigger impact on influence. Then there is the issue with shell companies etc. One thing to remember is that no matter what AGS do there will be players who will do their upmost best to exploit the system in place for ‘real world’ or in game money or just to dominate their server.
I do think that AGS should try to get some data in regards to how many people are PvP or PvE or PvX. Would be nice to know the general playerbase, looking of the forums the PvP community does seem to shout the loudest and post the most, however that should not devalue the PvE or PvX communities.
New World has come a long way since launch and I can only see AGS making improvements over time. The foundations are solid and now they have to build the game up from here. I think the dynamic flow of PvEvP still needs some thought and work but I have faith that AGS can improve on what we currently have. Having these discussions will really help them and us express what we ideally would like
Just to be clear you’re saying that the luck bonus for flagging is strong arming people into unwanted pvp.
I really feel like they need to add more points of interest for pvp aside from forts. Stuff like the mines and the farmstead can be hotspots. Taking over these places could increase influence so that both big pvp companies can work together with other companies to take over these places.
Territory ownership is pain point throughout. I suggested to have a “capital city” for each of the factions. The capital will be upgraded only through pve townboards and wont be flipped. However, any wars won by other faction will downgrade the city. This gives value for both pvp and pve, and still allow big companies to take over popular towns like WW or EF so players can now have options for their home base.
In the words of the Mandalorian ; This is the Way.
What PvE and PvP desperately need in New World is separate content changes in reference to buffs and nerfs to gear and weapons including perk(s) changes. As of late, this is a on going major issue where basically PvP dictates the direction New World is going with all their buffs and nerfs to include both content at the same time increasing or decreasing the effectiveness of a specific piece of gear or weapon mainly for PvP purposes. It also effects PvE to become more/less powerful which at most times is not needed since the Combat and Game Teams are constantly battling to try to “balance” New World. No one in PvE as their content is asking for nerfs to their gear/weapons, this falls 100% on PvP and PvE is reaping the consequences.
If PvE and PvP content separation was a thing, we wouldn’t see the late Blackgaurd’s weapon debacle come to light for PvE. Heavy Plagued Strikes would of remained on those Blackguard weapons because it was dropped in a PvE content, i.e. Expeditions. Why should PvE suffer from nerfs on gear/weapons when there should be a separation in content? If and when the Combat and Game Teams figure this out, it would change the game for New World forever.
PvP needs to have separate gear and weapons specifically catered to PvP. This would also create a sense of desire for players to either build PvP sets, craft PvP gear/weapons (with a PvP specific recipe list in Armoring, Weaponsmithing and Engineering), loot or purchase PvP only items through PvP content, i.e. OPR/Wars/Arenas.
this is crazy to me.
pve and pvp doesnt need to be split up. there is no minmaxing required in this game’s pve, balance is only needed for pvp.
also you guys are actually the worst, no pvper wants to split the game in half like you do. no one wants wow 2.0.
it would be nice, if everyone could just DIP THEIR TOE IN a little bit of all the content this game has to offer without FREAKING OUT about the pvp modes.
want a full pve game? seriously go somewhere else.
How can a new lvl 60 realistically dip their toe into PvP. When they are set up to be bullied by established players. Who are geared to the teeth. For the next 300+ hours. Let me tell, PvP like this only belong in tab target RPGs.
No one in their right mind would want to subject themselves to that treatment over and over again. Imagine right now being told to progress in life. You have to go the next 300+ hours IRL. Getting punched repeatedly at full strength, in the face, by Mike Tyson in his prime. That what you people are suggesting others do here.
or you could IDK try to get good? try to understand the game a little bit? que for opr? maybe unflag and try to figure out the systems?
instead i read paragraphs and paragraphs of entitled karens PVE’rs shit, who believe that they just because they bought the game everything should be spoon fed to them on equal footing.
if a boss is hard, i try to figure out the mechanics to defeat the boss. TURNS OUT ITS THE SAME FOR THE PLAYER vs PLAYER WEEOOOOW.
edit : most people who pvp dont have bis, some purples with weapon perks and resilient will grant you a LOT of mileage, as well as some of the decent dungeon legendaries. im regarded as one of the best bruisers on the server and still wear 2 purples and my musket set claps which is mostly 590-600 purples with resilient.
fear has defeated you.
So much fallacies in that last post of yours. Not even worth mentioning. All I will say, good luck in your dying game.
As long as people like you are not willing to tackle the real problems in the game. That most gamers face when trying to pick up New World. The less and less players will be enticed to continue with New World.
Fear has defeated me you said? That statement in it self contains so many falsehoods. More so since I am passed my 10k hour mark playing BDO. A open world forced PvP MMO where you do time from time get gear stomped. I also spent like what 10 years between two account playing Eve Online the most hardcore PvP sandbox MMO known to man. Fear fears me, not the other way around.
Like most of the gamers out there. I just see no point to play a crappier version of a game I’m already playing. (A PvXish Grinder MMO.) Again, the MMOs that I play, don’t have the issues.
With their player bases having to beg the Devs. To put more incentives to push more people to PvP. PvPing comes very natural in these games. Because ultimately, they are “FUN”. I do think that people like yourself should reacquaint yourselves to the meaning of fun. New World’s PvP for fresh lvl 60s is anything but fun for the first 300 or more hours. That’s evidently a deal breaker to many.
idgashit about your resume. im talking about new world.
no fallacies were involved in the making of this post. yes i agree stop playing a crappier version of your other pve games, go play those.
its an mmo. there are communities and companies and a pretty decent roadmap to becoming pvp viable.
box run/spam dungeons until 590, buy purples and upgrade them for opr/pvp.
if this is a deal breaker? then so be it. the game wasnt for them.
I have to disagree with you here. The entire risk/reward nonsense is exactly that, utter nonsense. Discrimination is what it is, plain and simple, no matter what some computer programmer working for AGS tried to disguise it as, discrimination is discrimination.
I have yet to see any, as in, not a single one. PvP is to be strictly seen as mutually agreed upon, by folks that are all geared and skilled in pvp, and ready and willing to participate in it. Anything else is not pvp, but PK enabling.
That part ends in AGS being named in a class action lawsuit, for getting folks to buy their game by assuring them that they will never be forced to flag for pvp, and then turning around and forcing them to flag for pvp. If this came to pass, I would love to see, at the outset of the legal battle, brought about by the discriminatory practices perpetuated by the Dev’s in NW, a cease and desist order being slapped on AGS, forcing the shutdown of all servers until the case is settled.
Mind you, I don’t want that to happen, (I love NW) but I absolutely would demand a refund, and monetary compensation for the 1700+ hours I have invested in this game to date, if my character was ever “forced to flag” for pvp, after being assured that would never happen, in order to get me to invest my time and money in the game.
AGS would loose all PvE players, and get sued, so no, that isn’t a way to handle the lack of pvp, rather the correct course is to allow folks that don’t want any pvp, to just play on servers without any pvp. When you overlook a perfectly good alternative, that causes no one to have to play pvp against their will, no good will come from that.
I didn’t, and thanks for asking for clarification. The choice would be, if you want to be able to play pvp, at all, choose the pvp servers, which would be just like right now, where you could play flagged or un flagged as you saw fit. The only case where you wouldn’t be able to flag, would be if you choose to create a character on the servers that don’t allow pvp at all. Hope that clears things up.
I wasn’t going to touch the other problems with pvp in this thread, other than to just say that there are many, and folks that want nothing to do with pvp also don’t want to have to deal with issues relating to pvp to get fixed, when they could just be playing on a server with no pvp in the first place.
They do indeed, but they are also the reason pvp is suffering from no one wanting to play pvp, because of their bad manners, folks think that if they behave this way on the forums, what must their behavior be like in game?
I agree. I too hope AGS chooses to rein in the pvp minded folks on the Dev team, and force them to offer the pvp-less servers soon.
Yep. Folks that didn’t want to be at a disadvantage, felt they had to flag up to remain competitive with the folks that were getting these bonuses, and so they flagged up with predictable results. Most of them no longer play new world, as they didn’t like feeling forced to flag, and really didn’t like getting killed over and over and over again, day after day.
And like I said in the quoted portion of my post, they could have had all these bonuses on servers that allow pvp, while also having servers where there was no pvp, and avoided all this drama in the first place. As long as the server I am playing on has no link to the servers where pvp happens, why would I mind what was going on there?
Big like for the reference, I love that show.
This is a very good post, highlighting additional problems with pvp and pve all mixed up together. I remember logging in and finding the heavy armor had changed, and asking “why”, and the answer was, “…in pvp…”. I also remember reading a thread that was calling for heavy armor to be nerfed (again), and I had to weigh in on that thread.
Then give up all the tilting of the scales in favor of the minority of the playerbase that is pvp.
Yet another thing that my pvp friends have told me about pvp, and the problems with it. Thanks for posting this here, so all who read this can understand, there are major problems with the current pvp system, over and above the few I listed when I started this thread. As bad as the problems I detailed are, they are hardly the only problems with pvp, and these problems are going to take time to get right.
In the meantime, giving PvE players the ability to simply opt out of all of this, and just play NW without the whole mess remains a perfectly good solution for every paying customer that isn’t interested in pvp in the first place.
I don’t know about anyone else, but I found the bolded part absolutely hilarious.
Wow, that got me laughing.
Spoon fed, so something like a little baby, being fed by mommy?
And then, the apparently outrageously offensive “…on equal footing…”
My pvp friends also spoke to me at length, about what they called “day one’rs”, meaning pvp folks that were far ahead of them, and only later did I truly begin to understand what they were going through.