They not nerfing mages because they are op. They need to reduce amount of mages in pvp because they are main reason for war lag. They probably decided to make this class useless because they are unable to fix game performance with massive amounts of aoe.
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Everything is fine…
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Hammers were causing the war lag
It is biased, whiny and he calls every person on the forums that doesn’t agree with him “noobs”. It is a horrible video.
Stopped reading at:
“…mages have not been the massive impact in PvP or PvE like they use to.”
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Because the inability to overlap aoe no longer stacks… gee great place to stop thinking.
“Nerfing a weapon because the game doesn’t work properly is a terrible idea”
I think this sentiment is the core of the opposition against these changes. There are still so many bugs that affect the weapons in the game right now, especially the ice gauntlet and fire staff. Some of these bugs make the weapons do too much damage and some of these bugs decrease their damage. I do not know how the devs think it is possible to “balance” weapons if they are not even working as intended.
So what should they do? Fix the bugs first, then carefully look at how the weapons are performing. If you still feel the weapons are over-performing then make small adjustments until eventually you are satisfied with their strength. Thats it, its really not hard.
Revan can we not say “melee” when what we actually mean is a 2 handed Axe on rollerskates and a collection of magical ranged AoE abilities fired from a mallet that nobody even attempts to physically hit anybody with? It’s not that I disagree with the spirit of the post, but every other actual melee weapon in the game is weeping.
You’re honestly so stupid and clearly a noob, u just jump out of heavy freezes instantly if you knew how to play the game, it’s noobs like you that post in forums that don’t know how to play the game that got ice gauntlet completely gutted for no reason
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The scenario you are depicting is exactly the kind of environment that any valid RPG has, with ROLES, STRATEGIES and TACTICS sorely lacking in New World’s clunkfest of a permastagger bar brawl
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We can see all the match ups now that ice gauntlet is getting gutted.
Rapier → you use an ability you get riposte then die. They can freely light spam you with no consequence. Can run or close the distance with fleche quite easily as well as spamming infinite i-frame evades. Will out damage you. Only counter play is to try and run away.
Spear → Can freely light spam you with no consequence and they will attempt to stun lock spam you. If you try to cast an ability you will probably get javalin or swept. Will out damage you. Only counter play is to try and run away.
Sword → Can freely light spam you without consequence. Can close the distance with leap. Any attempt at an ability will be met with a shield bash that will give them a free opportunity to leap attack your back for an 8 second slow which also buffs their damage. Will out damage you. Only counter play is to try and run away.
Hatchet → Has a speed buff self heal which makes them immune to most things. Can freely light attack you. Has an interrupt leap ability that deals high damage and can root. Can use a range rend or slow to put the fight into their favor even more. Will massively out damage you. You can try to run but im not sure if that even counts as counter play as they will likely catch and root you.
Hammer → Will never hit you with a light attack but if they land any of their abilities which is quite easy to do with how locked you are trying any kind of fire staff attack will allow them a free heavy which will then normally follow into another chain CC/Stagger which will cause them to massively out damage you. This is one of the few where the counter play is dodging abilities then light attacking/pillar of fire back works.
Great Axe as we all know is the hover board gliding monster that will unstoppable charge you down then instant burst you with reap and maelstrom which is getting a buff to add in a root just to make sure you dont dream of burnout being used to escape for a few more seconds.
Honestly when they decided a weapon with 0 CC options and the worst movement ability in the game needed a 40% damage nerf and the only counter melee option it had needed complete gutting. I have no idea what they are thinking but it clearly involves more Great Axe and Hammer mains running around.
You’re really overselling the ability for weapons like Spear and Hatchet to do anything at all to a ranged player. Even against Medium dodges their ability to chase and hit people is miserable and any whiffed ability is an opening for FS to hit them. Against Feral Rush for example if you i-frame that on reaction you actually get an Incinerate in before Hatchet can dodge it. Vault Kick loses to people running at a slight angle and if you try to Heavy with Spear when the game decides it doesn’t want to let you track with it then you lose about 10 meters of ground and have lengthy recovery.
I don’t like the changes to FS at all, but they don’t suddenly make the other melee any better at chasing people. A war where people are trying to use a Spear as a main weapon and chase across a field after a Firestaff would be a sight to see.
Totally agree!
The problem really is nerfing mage AND buffing everything else. Thats clearly the wrong way.
At least there are not 10 other mages in OPR i guess.
I’ll still play mage and wont ever play stupid GA, Hatched or anything else…
Alright well I watched the video now, even though it’s mostly reading Bigbear’s post. Let’s just get on the same page about something so we’re not exagerrating things for effect - Fire/Ice isn’t useless in wars in the current Live version of the game. I will agree that Ice Storm isn’t achieving much and that Hammer is arguably a lot more impactful but let’s keep things in perspective.
For the benefit of the rest of the thread who probably don’t understand the current state of the game, Firestaff damage on Live currently works like this:
To summarise:
- Pillar of Fire hits multiple times
- Pillar of Fire can be aimed on the ground behind things to guarantee crits
- Crits trigger Singe applying a dot
- Every hit of Pillar and every tick of the dot on every target triggers the Refreshing Pillar of Fire Perk, giving you instant cooldown refreshes and infinite mana
This gives you very high ranged AoE damage that you can use continually. Does this look absolutely crazy next to Bow/Musket AoE? Yea. Is it the best damage in the game for group PvE? Yea probably. Can it kill a Lifestaff 1on1? No chance. Is it higher than the potential DPS of a melee character stuck to a target who can continually swing? No it isn’t.
In terms of viability in wars Revan is right that a lot of Firestaff damage will be junk damage that achieves nothing, but that doesn’t mean you don’t want to bring this ranged damage potential with you. The value of FS’s damage is that it’s a ranged AoE, you can apply it immediately on to any Grav well that pops into your field of vision, you can focus the damage of multiple casters together on the same point where you would struggle to hit the same person with more than 4 melee at once because player collision physically prevents you from doing so. If you catch a blob of melee with CC your own GA’s can’t swing into it without eating shockwaves but your Firestaff guys can safely drop all of their stuff onto the area from a distance where they aren’t interrupted. It has a lot of value.
What the PTR changes do (The important changes, not the ones in the notes) is take away all of the Refreshing Pillar interactions and prevent the Singe talent working so that Pillar doesn’t multihit, doesn’t apply a dot on crit and doesn’t rapidly refresh itself. This absolutely cripples the potential damage output of the Firestaff, and damage is the only thing that the Firestaff brings to a fight. I think FS needed some changes, but these were not the right changes.
Ice Storm has also been underwhelming in Wars, as without the ability to stack it is currently an “area denial ability” that doesn’t out damage the healing of an AoE healing circle, meaning people can just stand in it and it denies nothing whatsoever. On the otherhand I understand the need to prevent it from stacking, as it’s an instant large area ranged AoE and the potential damage on point from 10-20 people simultaneous dropping Storm would be obscene. A better solution would be something like this:
- Only 1 Ice Storm can hit a person at one time
- Ice storm only ticks twice per second
- Punishing Storm talent is replaced with a debuff on any target hit by Ice Storm, which increases the damage of further ticks of Ice Storm, stacking up to 300%
- Debuff lingers for 2 seconds after Ice Storm ends and can be refreshed by hits from any other player’s Ice Storm
This gives you an ability which isn’t instantly lethal but which people cannot stand in long term, as after 5 seconds it will deal double the damage of an Ice Storm on Live, requiring you to leave the area and drop stacks. Now it’s an actual area denial skill that won’t just be healed through and if you have multiple IGs they can benefit from the previous stacks. You also reduce the immediate damage so it’s less effective if you just drop it on top of yourself in a duel.
Anyway it’s a slow work day, I just wanted to argue with the idea that Mages are trash on Live.
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I think the problem with trying to explain my build back to me is I already know how it works. Dropping an aoe every few seconds that does the same damage as a Great Axe light attack is fine on paper. In fact so fine im okay with using it now and why it was my main build of choice when aoes stacked.
However there are some problems I have with the comparison
- Gravity does not hold people as they jump exploit to escape
- you can now i-frame ice shower as well as jump exploit to escape
- The damage can be blocked by a shield
- During latency it often doesnt do damage
- Missing it means you have lost any hope of a rotation
- You are still a free kill if anyone decides to attack you
Again when there was a system that allowed this to be a range DPS options even though the aoe was less damage than a properly built rain of arrows this was fine. When melee decided to go for me I could happily fight in melee with ice gauntlet as I would have emtombed, ice shower and could even use ice storm.
So then their plan is:
- lower entombed health
- +10 second CD on ice shower
- 5 second intermission on heavy freeze
- you can still jump out of ice shower
- 40%+ nerf to damage
- cant be healed in entombed
- whilst making pillar of fire easier to hit, drastically lowering the damage and ease of landing singe procs
- removing fire ball crits (yes it does currently crit)
- slowing down heavy attacks
- removing the 10% damage buff storm gives to be whilst under 50% health
So whereas before I had a high risk with mild reward dps weapon and a side tool that was a little bit overtuned that destroyed melee we now have a high risk very low reward “dps” weapon and a incredibly underpowered tool that mildly inconveniences people as they might get rooted and receive 1 heavy attack.
Yes we shouldnt compare all melee to Great Axe but we should consider great axe further since the resilience fix. Gravity serves no purpose as a 3 second inconvenience that can be jump exploited out of to avoid aoe damage, if you dodge the initial burst you can freely walk through it and with the latency issues of 1.04 people often walk through without dodging. So naturally I have swapped to maelstrom as it is a very wide aoe that allows for huge burst, plus pull and applies weaken to everyone hit by it. Soon to be buffed along side reap to apply a root. So you can use reap to interrupt people, cluster them up to then apply a group weaken that in all unless people have 150 constitution or close to it with heavy armour do not survive your two damage burst rotations. This means we do not even need gravity as one great axe can solo burst kill multiple people as it now has two damage rotations instead of 1 which added with the path of destiny spam/shockwave spam adding further debuffs people often cant dodge so you actually kill people through the no longer stacking healing.
In wars I am still doing over a million damage as a great axe user. Unlike a fire staff which is spreading out very low damage to multiple people, I am applying high burst to smaller crowds which then actually die: Great Axe DPS Build For Wars 1.1 million damage - New World - YouTube
Yes sure spear, rapier, hatchet and hammer have tracking abilities. But they all have very good abilities that when paired with another weapon can still be played with great effect. However what does fire staff and ice gauntlet now have? Their niche of one being good at range and one being good at melee (briefly) is now gone. Even in current meta it is a struggle to suggest bringing one of these over a sword+life staff, GA+WH or a LS+GA/WH in war but after the nerfs? As you seem to agree not much use.
Do these still apply on PTR? Because the patch notes include this:
- Jumping and traversal are now disabled when navigation is disabled (e.g. Root).
Everything has been kind of unplayable since the last patch so I can understand you not wanting to rely on CC abilities and just going for raw damage trading, but if we operate on the assumption that things will actually work at some point in the future (May be wishful thinking) then CC enables ranged damage and peels melee. There are clear advantages to being able to deal damage from range which I think you’re glossing over, but at least we agree that PTR Firestaff looks like a waste of a weapon slot.
The balance of different options fits together into a large puzzle and there are variables we’re not discussing that make a big difference, like Lifestaff healing. The only reason we consider a lot of ranged damage to be pointless junk damage is that the Lifestaff heals through it all for free, so that only the damage within the 2-3 second burst period that kills someone is actually meaningful. Reducing LS healing would change that, and the more you reduce LS healing the more relevant that junk damage becomes. In a hypothetical scenario where there is no healing whatsoever the Musket reigns supreme from 100 meters away, so let’s not forget that if we do have a Greataxe meta right now that is strongly influenced by the power of the Lifestaff.
The other elephant in the room is Path of Destiny, we can prepare to complain about that the moment all of the casters in wars swap to Hammer next build.
For gravity with the gravity perk you cant jump. You know because it needed buffs a long side the other 2 abilities getting roots.
however
in line with the current nerfs… you can still jump out of ice shower.
I have very much been converted to the great axe / war hammer meta using 300 strength as I know how to fix the ability bug (holding right click). I use the Great Axe for high burst and the hammer (along with 9+ hammer buddies) spamming path of destiny, wrecking ball and shockwave onto clusters of enemies. Which get this. IS MORE EFFECTIVE IN LATENCY. People rubberband back into abilities they clearly avoided often taking huge damage spikes and dying.
People atm are unironically saying bow rain of arrows plus penetrating shot on live is a better dps option than fire/ice and that even the developers must agree as they are also nerfing the rain of arrows radius.
Testing on PTR a heavy healer can still freely heal through multiple ranged opponents, especially with some carefully chosen dodges but two hammer or two great axe or any combination can actually burst kill a healer now if using the maelstrom/reap combinations. A few US servers are using this with gravity by dropping charge. It seems the developers really really want people to only play GA/WH with some combination of LS support as it works well with Hammer, Sword and now void gauntlet.
Dont even get me started on the infinite stagger/sleep/cleave cap when we have only 1 aoe dot allowed to apply at a time
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Making me regret buying this game. How do you nerf something without knowing how gimped mages are at PvP. The passive magic resists on heavy armor itself is broken enough to make mages useless not including the fact that mages need to manually aim at its target. Heavy Malee has a huge advantage just left-clicking with free included movement that scales at the size of a dodge.
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Iam actually quitting basically till they fix this buff mages fix all their passives. This just shows you they don’t play the game.
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Still no dev response. Such cowardice