PTR Hatchet stealth nerfs are a mistake, right?

A bunch of unannounced nerfs were done on the PTR, and they have basically made Hatchet even weaker than it is on Live in both trees.

To take stock of what was lost, from the start of PTR to now:

Exploitation: 15% reduced to 10%
Adrenaline Rush: Requires a hit now
Boot and Rally removed for Hurling Force (which many consider worse)
Rending Throw damage slightly reduced (120% to 110%; same as Live)
Social Distancing damage unchanged, but lower than Live (100%; Live is 130%)
Infected Throw damage significantly reduced (165% to 120%; Live is 150%)
Accumulated Power: 30% reduced to 20%, aimed throws now count
Relentless Fury: 30% nerfed to 15%, duration increased from 3s to 5s

I was fine losing some of the more valuable skills in the Throwing tree because the skills were getting buffed and Aimed Throws would no longer cost stamina.

However, now it looks like all of these improvements are being erased by an overall damage decrease for both trees. Less Empower on the left hand tree, lower damage multipliers on the right hand tree. Does this sound like the sort of changes you make to a weapon tree that is struggling?

Please roll back these changes. So many of us were looking forward to Throwing Hatchet actually being useable as a hard to aim, high damage ranged weapon, but all those hopes seem dashed now.

Really, if changes are to be made, here are some suggestions:

Accumulated Power: Each successful light attack or aimed throw against the same target grants a stack of 5% Empower for 3s. (Max 3 stacks.)

This reduces the activation requirement for this perk. You still have to hit the same target over and over, but at least you are rewarded for it in a fashion similar to that of Greed in the GA tree.

Desperate Refresh: All cooldowns are reduced by 5% when hitting an enemy with an attack or aimed throw while your health is below 50%.

This will actually make this skill useable. Right now, a 2% cooldown reduction is laughable given how short Hatchet CDs are, and the 30% HP threshold is unworkable because most people will die soon thereafter.

On Fire: Every third thrown hatchet hit is a guaranteed critical hit and deals 10% more critical damage.

I have done the math. This skill makes no sense given how high the crit rate is for late game players. At least give it some value then.

7 Likes

Imagine players fully testing it, and saying the tree was over buffed and a bit OP, them adjusting it, then other players complaining it was unneeded.

AGS can’t win.

Just wait till it hits live. It’s gonna be more viable regardless.

4 Likes

Who says it was OP? It’s definitely strong and compares favorably against BB and Bow. However, you’re not going to convince anyone to play this tree at all if it’s weak. Hitting moving targets at middle distance and further with a throwing hatchet is extremely difficult. It needs to hit hard.

Also, how does Throwing tree being OP explain the straight nerf to Relentless Fury, which isn’t even a skill that relates to throwing?

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Strangling everything in the cradle. They get some two-piece KO combo footage that we have not seen yet? Definitely too fast imo to be reducing the efficacy without people at least playing it on Live seeing as to how frustrating the PTR can be when they don’t even list changes.

Did they at least fix the Aerial Transmission Bug not applying Weaken in addition to the Disease debuff falling off after the cloud disappears? I was doing other testing so I had not the chance.

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Seriously. They should have just released it as it was to Live. I actually think they would need to buff it a second time. I think a pure Throwing Hatchet build is still outclassed by Bow and BB.

I think Infected Throw’s Weaken is being applied only on direct hits. There is no Weaken debuff icon though. And yeah, I think the Disease applied by the cloud is removed when the cloud expires. But hey, at least Infected Throw deals a lot of damage if it hits–oh wait. :frowning:

2 Likes

It probably because people kept posting Hatchet OP with the various bugs Infected Throw had on PTR. There was even someone posting a video of them solo farming POI and Elite Mobs with them, and therefore boom: NERFS!

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Yikes. They really know how to fiddle that code when it comes to those numbers, for whatever reason but they just can’t find the issue with the actual ability -_-. So tone deaf on them to not bring things to a working level for a minute before toning things down. Its unbelievable.

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Well yeah. Any perk that allows you to permanently stun someone is OP. But that was clearly a bug that needed to be fixed. The rest of the weapon didn’t need to catch nerfs. Right now, I feel like the Berserker build is weaker than it was before (Exploitation and Adrenaline Rush are nerfed, Boot and Rally is gone, both of the Empowers are nerfed) and the Throwing tree is still going to be unused because the damage is so low.

Throwing Tree was mainly going to be a spicy thing for PvE imo since hitboxes are larger and mob movement is pretty predictable. Social Distancing for a good combo is def the play in PvP, though all of these DRs are absurd. The Throwing Tree changes seriously affect previous builds that utilized say Light Armor and 150 Dex to keep at their target by using the synergy of Boot and Rally and Rejuvenating Crits.

Now you only get 10 stamina on lights instead of possibly getting back 20 and they are gutting damage potency for Berserker despite the passives not changing for damn near 10 months. Tiger’s Instinct has been dumpstered and now the ire is back on Hatchet since people feel Defy Death is cheap in small scale. All of this is so silly and far too heavy handed.

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If they push this to live, nothing is going to change, it will remain THE WORST skill tree in the game by far. Even with all the buffs it would still be in a bad spot, now no one will going to use it outside of some niche bulids for escape,some debuffs and defy death cheating death ulti… The funniest thing is that people actually think bow is getting nerfed, when reality is with adjusted explosive shot ppl will do around 40% MORE damage than now with poison shot setup… AGS and balance, well…

2 Likes

Dude AGS is really starting to bullshit.
I can say they deleted SnS from the game. nerfed too hard
Hatchet nerfed…
They nerfed the Tiger…
There is not 1 melee class playable in the summer meta…
summer update has 5 meta classes
FS/IG/BoW/Musket/Rapier… sounds like a joke right? But it’s true…
4 meta range classes + 1 meta range support class…
These awful decisions of AGS now make me sick to my stomach
Looks like the summer update will be the end of the game…

2 Likes

np guys, at least the bow and fire staff will do even more damage, we will have nice BOW/FSprs after patch <3. Stat padding even more, great balance.

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you get two lives lmao. i hope hatchet gets nerfed into the ground

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yea go play hatchet and just get oblivioned and die, or go back the months where they finally fixed defy death, previously if u drank a pot it would remove the buff since u “sheathed” ur weapon and essentially insta killing u. this bug had been out for at least 4 moths and even after it was found they put it in PTR and let it roll out with the next update a month later, no hot fix. hatchet has been close to dog shit for months, i hope u continue to get killed by hatchets that out play u and ur upset so u gotta complain and get it nerfed rather then just improve as a player :smiley:

3 Likes

You do realize that people who play pure Throwing don’t take Defy Death, right?

Yeah, even Life Staff will outdamage throwing hatchet at range. It’s a joke with such low multipliers.

I spent a good month or so personally parroting lots of feedback to get the Throwing Hatchet reworked properly, so the stealth nerfs are a real point of conflict for me.

On one hand, it was really exciting to see the under-utilized skill tree come into it’s own niche with really good damage output and reworked mechanics so that Aimed Throw can function.
On the other though… there were some concerns about Throwing Hatchet going life in the state that it was in during PTR.

Let me explain:

After some testing today (120% wep damage) Infected Throw was head shotting target dummies with no other debuffs for around 2400-2500 dmg while I was playing in Heavy Armor and had no other debuffs applied to it other than what Infected Throw applied. It’s only against a target dummy of course, but when considering other damage multipliers like Light/Medium armor, the re-worked Rending Throw perk, Hurdling Force passive, the now buffed Persistent Hindrance, and stuff like Slashing dmg increase gems, Throwing Hatchet’s damage output was starting to look insanely high without ever needing to really used Aimed Throws to enable or support the abilities.

Before the nerf when Infected Throw was hitting for 165% weapon damage, just the Rending Throw perk alone would get that up to almost 200% weapon damage. Add on 10% from Medium Armor, 6% (two debuff average) from Persistent Hindrance, 10% (medium range average) from Hurdling Force, and you have an ability that applies Weaken, Disease, AND Exhaustion hitting for around 210% - 220% weapon damage. Infected Throw should be incredibly strong, but maybe something with that much utility hitting as hard as Sticky Bomb isn’t okay.

The real culprit (excluding Infected Throw) that led to us getting these nerfs is likely tied to this point I alluded to earlier though.

Throwing Hatchet’s damage output was starting to look insanely high without ever needing to really used Aimed Throws to enable or support the abilities.

With how high the damage multipliers were prior to the changes, lots of people were only using the Throwing Hatchet abilities as something to cycle though; they’d swap to hatchet, throw all their abilities out, and swap back to whatever their main weapon was. Reason being, is that if they landed 2/3 for any of them, it was usually enough to get the job done and still keep pressure up without doing a lot of thinking or aiming.

Take a moment to look at the other passives upgrades in the Throwing tree: almost all of them have some kind of interaction with Aimed Throws, something to benefit or reward you for landing them, and to be used in JUNCTION with the abilities. Having really high damage multipliers casts a shadow over Aimed Throw when you’re directly comparing the viability of cycling all your abilities VS using them spaced out and weaving normal throws in comparison, because it’ll almost always be better to just ability dump cycle and then swap back to your other weapon and keep rolling.

I can’t speak for certain on what their design intentions of the weapon are, but looking at how low the damage multipliers are for the abilities on Live are, how the stamina passives function, and the very clear focus on having stamina advantages over your target, it seemed like the intention was a medium-damage, medium-to-high weapon that focuses on the consistency of landing attacks while juggling stamina over your opponent to win, instead of outright bursting them down.

The TL;DR version of it is, I think the nerfs are being implemented because the consistency of Throwing Hatchets went up. Our movement speed while aiming was almost doubled, the speed of the projectile went up, it’s hit boxes were made more accurate to the aiming crosshair, Infected Throw’s animation speed is close to 3x it’s original speed on Live, Social Distancing was given more utility, a stagger, a root, and CDR bonuses with it’s new perk, and damage bonuses are far more common with the skill than they used to be.

It was upsetting a little bit at first, but when you consider how much more mechanically smooth Throwing Hatchet functions now, having lower damage numbers means that more priority is shifted on to the Aimed Throws themselves as a mechanic to continue enabling the other elements of the skill tree, perhaps like they originally intended.

The main benefits of the changes I could think of are:

  • Increased build diversity - Prior to the changes, the majority of players would definitely consider Infected Throw a must-pick to the point of ruling out other options. Now it’s something people can debate about if it’s worth picking to them over other abilities

  • Higher skill floor - The average player will need to put more effort in, or be a better player in general to fully utilize how Throwing Hatchet functions, and keeps the weapon firmly locked into a “you have to try with this” type mindset VS picking up Bow and ending up in the top 10 of OPR your first week of playing

  • Tempers excess saturation - Hatchet before the rework, even it’s melee side, is kind of a niche pick most of the time. Loads of people are going to be trying out the new changes when PTR goes live, and that means meta chasers galore trying out the HOT NEW CRAZY (gone wild XXX) super powerful weapon that’s available; keeping damage multipliers lower means that a high skill cap (not the same as skill floor) play style is semi-enforced and means that it’s only going to truly shine in the hands of niche, above average, or skilled players while still retaining it’s previous role in the weapon meta, but being far more mechanically functional than Live servers hatchet

  • Room to grow - It’s disheartening to see nerfs to something that I’m hyped out of my gourd for, but generally speaking I’d rather see weapons that need overhauls landing on the weaker side of an update instead of overpowered; if something needs improvement, it can always be buffed in reasonable increments to a healthy level, instead of being overly nerfed as a knee jerk reaction to negative feedback, which over all means more time spent playing a healthy version of the weapon in the long run

I’m still mixed about the changes some, but there are reasons behind why they might be changing those damage values.

My guesses in regards to the melee passive changes are that they want to lower some of the values since Throwing is far more accessible now as an accessory to the Berserker Hatchet tree (increasing the duration of Relentless Fury reeks of that) and could actually be used in between melee attacks / with melee attack damage modifiers and they don’t want those combinations to be too strong, since players could actually weave in and out of melee and ranged attacks smoothly now.

My recommendations;

  • Give Berserker it’s own entire balancing pass look over to consider elements of it’s design for underused passives, like the DoT cleanse, and CDR when below 30% hp. It’s in a more solid state than Throwing on live, but has very limited build diversity.

  • Increase the damage scaling of Throwing’s capstone, Persistent Hindrance so that its 4% per stack, or 6% per stack. This would keep the nerfs from the other abilities not feel so bad, while keeping conditional requirements

  • Consider adding some form of damage over time effect into the tree, in the form of a short, low or medium strength bleed. This would allow for more mechanical value out of the skill tree’s passives in a self contained way, without requiring other effects like Keenly Jagged.

Gonna keep mulling over the changes and considering ideas though. AGS has better developers than we like to think sometimes, and almost always have a reason for what they’re doing. Worst case scenario with these changes means we don’t have to deal with BowPR 2.0: Throwing Edition.

@Aenwyn @Luxendra @Shadow_Fox @Kay @o-o

We got feedback happening in here!

1 Like

I actually started to enjoy this road crossing any borders humans could think about while ago. To infinity and beyond, lets search the unsearched and break every wall which could possibly stop us from reaching the unreachable.

Why ags nerf the hatchet? Passif and perks are nerfed.
This weapon is always bug (dispell ice shower with berserk, infected cloud etc…)

But in live version hatchet isn’t the top weapon.
Throwing hatchet is useless…

Please ags dont nerf like this.

Pourquoi ags nerf la hachette? Les passifs sont nerfs (des degats en moins partout) les perks d’armes sont carrement mauvaise.
L’arme est toujours bug, on ne peut pas dispell le ralentissement apres la douche de glace, le nuage de lancé infecté ne tien pas me temps qu’l devrait (3 a 4 secondes au lieux de 10 a 15, il part en meme temps que le nuage au sol de 6 secondes) de plus il n’inflige pas affaiblissement mais seulement maladie.

Sur la version live la hachette est pas une des toute meilleures armes, les joueurs qui jouent avec ne sont que rarement les top players, des armes comme l arc ou le gantelet du neant sont bien plus forte entre toutes les mains…

Pour finir le lancé de hache est une branche inutile et le sera toujours autant meme en nerfant la seule branche viable.

Objectivement la hachete n’aura a mon sens que 2 legere ameliorations qui etaient necessaire, les lancé infecté seront moins lent, les lancé de hache plu couteux en vita, et la ruée feroce pourra ralentir la cible touchée. (Seul controle de la hachette).

A coté de ça la hachette perd 5% de degat constant avec exlloitations nerf, 10% de degat sur les 4eme coup a la suite… moyen moyen.

Pour finir, la perk d’arme du lancé infecté qui permettait de se regeneré etait bien plus utile que ce qui a ete mis actuellement sur le ptr…

I mean they were reworking the throwing tree. If you primarily went throwing tree, then you wouldn’t be able to use defy death so…