Pure Stat vs Hybrid Stat Weapons - Question

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@Developer I have question: Are Hybrid Stat weapons supposed to be weaker that pure stat weapons by design, and if so why?

Comparing the say the GreatAxe/Warhammer with 300 Strength, with the Spear with 300 Dexterity there is a massive drop off in weapon damage at max gs. Roughly a 300 drop from the GA/WH to the spear. If compare the Hatchet with 300 Strength which is the 1-handed category it is a 450 drop from the GA/WH.

I don’t understand this at all? It is the same investment of stats i.e. 300 why is one paid off much more than the other… Even if you tired a 200/100 or any hybrid configuration you never come close to reaching parity. It seems that Hybrid is just a nerf, instead of the feature that it should be. It is also no surprize that the meta is always dominated by pure stat weapons. Just to reach parity you would need 300 Dex and 150 Strength to reach the same damage as a pure stat GA/WH with 300, that is a 150 stat extra investment that the GA/WH player can throw into Constitution for free.

Same on the Magic side when comparing the Ice Gauntlet/Fire Staff to the Void Gauntlet, all at 300 INT… again there is a drop off of 100 Weapon DMG. This again is for no reason what so ever…

I do not understand the payouff. it is not like Hybrid weapons have stronger abilities as a pay-off, or easier to hit abilities:

  • The Void Gauntlet has slower ranged attack animation, and Essense Rupture and Tether has the smallest hitboxes ever. While Ice Gauntlet/Fire Staff have large AoEs and bigger/faster auto attack particles.
  • Same on the Melee side, Warhammer/Great Axe has long Range and large AoE CC that is hard to miss Gravity Well/PoD/etc. While the Spear CC is upfront, single target and easy to dodge…
  • You can’t even say the hybrid weapons have better utility, as Bow has the best debuffs, Life Staff is best Heal (kinda a joke if you wanted to heal or debuff with VG), and those pure stat weapons still do more damage providing better utility.

What i am basically saying is that these weapons are just upfront nerfed for no reasons. Should thier not be a optimal hybrid setup at least where you can match the pure stat weapons with the same investment of stats… e.g. 200/100 hybrid being equivalent to 300 pure stat (one players stat investment should not be worth that much more than anothers). Or do some other balancing system or design philosophy that brings them more in-line… otherwise just make all weapons hybrid or all pure stat, becuase as they stand hybrid weapons are just a handicap masquerading as a feature of the game.

TL/DR: Hybrid Weapons are fundamentally nerfed compared to Pure Stat weapons, and there needs to be design balancing to rectify the massive game. Otherwise the meta will always be dominated by pure stat weapons so matter what.

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So there’s a lot to upack here that I think you’re missing.

Hybrid weapons offer a VERY large benefit of being leveled with other weapons, and then when you do a respec/gear swap to level other weapons you now have a pre-leveled weapon in the category. For long term multiple weapon leveling this is a HUGE benefit.

When looking at the hatchet & spear vs Great Axe & Hammer you’re missing a huge point. Hatchet & Spear attacks are faster and more focused. They are BETTER at burning down a single target. They also have ranged attack options that the other two weapons don’t offer. Comparing them to the sword & shield’s damage path would be a far better representation & they compare pretty evenly here with their undying, crowd control, & ranged being the benefits versus sword n board’s added blocking potential.

When we switch the conversation to the Void Gauntler versus Ice Gauntlet & Firestaff you’re looking at the wrong thing here. The Void Gauntlet is an Int primary weapon but it is DESIGNED to pair with the Life Staff to give healers a more reliabke damage option for progressing through content and having an oh shit card when someone gets on them, the healer. If it did damage comparable to the other Int magic weapons on top of offering a wide variety of buffs, debuffs, and it’s own sustain options then the weapon itself would be absolutely over the top and running anything else just wouldn’t be possible because you would have heals & damage making you an immovable wall. There wouldn’t be any pvping you anymore and pve would simply turn into skill roations as you just stand still.

Bow is meant to be king of dexterity options with Musket & Hatchet/Spear being the windows into strength or intelligence weapon leveling. Hatchet Spear are your back ups to the bow. They are your secondary if you couldn’t keep the enemy at bay.

The big thing you are missing is most dual stat weaponry is not meant to be your main weapon. They are meant to support something else you are running. The MAIN weapons of this game currently are Great Axe, Hammer, Sword & Shield, Bow, Fire Staff, Ice Gauntlet, & Life Staff. Supporting weapons are currently Hatchet, Spear, Musket, & Void Gauntlet.

Are there situations where a secondary weapon out performs a main weapon? Yes. Can you use a secondary weapon as a main weapon and be just fine? Yes. That does not however change the fact that these weapons are versatile weapons which is a SIGNIFICANT advantage that they hold over any main weapon.

At the end of the day there is never going to be one build above all. There is never going to be a weapon that out performs everything else in its respective attribute class. The reason for that? It is bad for game health. It is especially bad for game health in an MMO or a PvP game, and New World is both of those things.

Looking at weapons in the vacuum of just their damage output without considering all of the 19 skill perks to customize and specialize them to round out your play style is simply an ineffective way to evaluate them. Numbers may not be higher than xyz, so what do you gain for having that lower number?

The best example I can think of for that is comparing the Great Axe & Hammer, or the Fire Staff & Ice Gauntlet. GA offers better catch potential and sustain while the Hammer offers higher damage values and crowd control. Fire Staff offers better mobility and damage output while Ice Gauntlet offers better crowd control and general resource management.

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I could not agree more.

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This is exactly the point I was making in a way as this is the way it feels, but I asked for a confirmation that this is by design. Because nowhere does it state that these hybrid weapons are supposed to not be main weapons, or are supposed to be secondary weapons.

  • Example I have been trying to main VG as a ranged main weapon for a while now, and have respecced and crafted many different builds to try and find an optimal one. I never could, as I was always lacking damage or if I went too hard for damage I died instantly. Then as a comparision I used some of the same gear with Fire staff and found a rediculous boost in damage…
  • At no point did the game mention that it was the case that I could never reach the same level of base damage, I only found this our after testing a bit and doing some research.
  • But honestly I don’t think they intend it to be this way, I think they are just missing the mark, but if they do mean it to be this way , then they should make it know.
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My guy, you’re still missing the point. A weapon is a tool. Any tool specialized specifically for ONE job, will perform that job better than a multi-tool that can do many jobs, but maybe not quite as optimally.

Dual statted weapons CANNOT have the same scaling while having as wide of a versatility bar as the weapons that have less versatility but do one thing very very well. That’s called balance.

Dual stat weapons offer a LOT of benefits one stat weapons don’t. Training other weapons, elemental gems, their kits in general. They are MEANT to handle a wider variety of situations at the loss of a little damage. That’s why they are balanced.

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What drop are you referring to? You need to consider alpha damage and damage per second.
If you hit with an axe 1000 in a hit every second but with a rapier 2 hits a second for 500 in the end both do same damage. But as someone above already said every weapon has a different purpose. One is good at close range the other better at mid range and so on. Maybe I am missing a point

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I would agree with you all, if this versality fact was true but it is not. Pure stat weapons have the exact same amount of versatility, if not more. Having extra stats freed up due to the low investment to be effective, gives you more versality in your builds.

Greaxt Axe (one of those one fuction tools you mention) has charge, one of the best (if not the best) mobility tool in the game. It has a ranged CC ability in Gravity Well. A large amount of sustain, chasing options and above average damage allowing to DPS in Heavy Armor very efficiently. If that is not versality then I don’t know what is.

Similairly the WH has the same amount of Rend and CC as the Spear, though its CC and damage is better. So once again, it is not like these pure stat weapons lack versatilty or options, they are not just pure beatsticks… they have lots of tools and tricks, all the weapons do due to the way this game is designed with the weapon trees and perks.

So when every weapon shares those characteristics of versatility, then the damage difference between the tools does become a factor.

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As someone who has done it, go level up a weapon that doesn’t scale with your single stat weapon and get back to me about how that alone doesn’t provide a ton of versatility.

Furthermore a dual stat weapon has MORE pairing options than a single stat weapon. By far. Want to know a HUGE thing handaxe & spear hold over Great Axe & Hammer? The fact that they can pair with a true ranged option like the bow or musket. Simply expanding the options of what your other weapon is provides insanely more versatility than the raw skill trees and you’re acting like that doesn’t exist.

You shouldn’t be using only one of your two weapons. The game is designed around having two and swapping between them effectively depending on what you need in that moment. Single Stat strength weapons lack a good ranged back up. They have Spear throw & handaxe tosses but that’s it. That is their weakness. Single Stat intelligence weapons lack prolonged sustain options, or close range vulnerability. You can use the Rapier or the Void Gauntlet to fix one, but not both. Single Stat dexterity options lack sustain options. You only have handaxe undying as a panic option if you find yourself getting focused. Life staff, the only Single Stat focus weapon lacks damage and relies on out lasting opponents. They have Void Gauntlet for that fix and arguably this makes Focus the most optimal stat currently in a vaccuum but neither weapon gains grit options so if they get a simple cc chain they usually fold and quickly.

The single stat weapons ALL have significant draw backs that the dual stat weapons don’t have nearly as much of. The trade? Damage numbers.

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Every drawback situation you mentioned is mirrrored in the single stat weapons, and so are the advantages. You also seem to think I haven’t been trying different things, I have. That it was lead me to the realization.

And I am not saying you need to only have 1 weapon, I am saying the disparity in stats cause a lack of agency in what you can choose to be you main weapon. That is the problem, that the hybrid weapons become supporting tools or on some cases not used at all.

Regarding your Spear/Hatchet analogy, I am not saying you can’t do what you want, but there is a massive damage difference between that and a pure stat weapon build. That it why you don’t 50% of OPR running Spear/hatchet.

Bow is a weird one because a pure Dex melee weapon doesn’t exist yet, but when it does guess what… all that ranged secondary weapon options you talk about dissappear when the pure dex melee weapon does more damage. It is the reason I left the Ranged Physical Dmg option out of my initial post, because it doesn’t have enough weapons in the game to do double pure stat, and probably why you see so much variation. But that’s exactly my point, either everything needs to be hybrid or everything pure, and on a even playing field… so that choice actually matters (not choice, due to lack of a pure option in the range case).

There is another thing with the ranged thing which I’m not sure if you are aware, it actually works the exact opposite of all the others in this type of hybrid/pure comparison. Which throws out all you claims that versality means weapons need to do less dmg. 200/100 musket has much higher weapon damage than 300 bow… same investment. So way I see it is this is how it should be with all hybrid weapons (which it is current not with the other as I have explained), cause a 200/100 split is less versatile and therefore should do more dmg.

I am not fighting for any particular weapon, all I want to see is fundamental core system balance and agency in the experience you have.

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This is definitely not an accurate assessment. Great Axe, SnS, Life Staff, Fire Staff, Ice Gauntlet, Void Gauntlet, Bow, and Musket are all primary weapons and the rest are supporting weapons if we’re talking about what is actually true. GA, SnS, LS, IG, and VG can all serve as support weapons as well, while musket has literally no value as a support weapon. If you’re not fully supporting the musket you might as well not be using it at all and would be better off picking up something else.

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As for OP: hybrid stat weapons actually have better access to damage scaling presently due to the existence of perks up to but not beyond 300 points, and will in the future due to the fact that with access to enough points a .9 and .65 modifier is better to have than a single 1 modifier. The trade-off is less damage if you want to pick up constitution.

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It is not accurate to say that because a hybrid weapon can go beyond 300 and still pick up perks that it is a higher damage weapon for multiple reasons:

  • To get the base weapon damage of a 300 Str GA/WH, with a spear you need 300 dex/150 stre, so thats 3 extra perks. but those GA/WH get also 3 extra defensive perks and the extra HP while dealing the same amount of damage. 150 additional stat investment it a lot just to reach parity.
  • Not all perks are offensive, and not all weapons can benefit from the more situational/speciific perks. This is very true in the Int and Foc trees, also true of non-trust weapons dipping in to Dex. So sometimes you won’t even get value from the extra perks you are getting beyond 300.
  • And by future are you talking way beyond 600 GS, when both 300 str and 300 con is capped off (approx. 800 GS), that is when a hybrid weapon is going to be able to put more points in? That is a very very far future, and assumes weapons won’t get addition attribute passive scaling in the future beyond.

I think the scaling needs to be better on hybrid weapons to make your argument, like if it was only 50 extra attributres on hybrid to reach parity with a 300 pure stat weapon and beyond that you would surpass them. That would be more acceptable, but stil rough due to extra perks not always going to be a benefit.

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It is not accurate to say that because a hybrid weapon can go beyond 300 and still pick up perks that it is a higher damage weapon for multiple reasons:

If you think this you don’t understand how the raw damage scaling of attributes for hybrid scaling weapons works.

To get the base weapon damage of a 300 Str GA/WH, with a spear you need 300 dex/150 stre, so thats 3 extra perks. but those GA/WH get also 3 extra defensive perks and the extra HP while dealing the same amount of damage. 150 additional stat investment it a lot just to reach parity.

Are you talking about the base literal weapon damage per swing? DPS? Because better scaling doesn’t inherently mean the resulting damage is going to be better if the worse scaling weapon has overtuned base numbers or the better scaling weapon has undertuned numbers. Also per hit damage doesn’t necessarily mean better DPS or effective damage.

Not all perks are offensive, and not all weapons can benefit from the more situational/speciific perks. This is very true in the Int and Foc trees, also true of non-trust weapons dipping in to Dex. So sometimes you won’t even get value from the extra perks you are getting beyond 300.

Yeah, wow, Void Gauntlet doesn’t get DPS perks from the focus tree. The horror.

I think the scaling needs to be better on hybrid weapons to make your argument, like if it was only 50 extra attributres on hybrid to reach parity with a 300 pure stat weapon and beyond that you would surpass them. That would be more acceptable, but stil rough due to extra perks not always going to be a benefit.

People like you are such wildly poor thinkers. Hybrid weapons benefit more from pure glass builds than single-stat weapons. Period. They improve more offensively compared to their unstatted state. Whether that actually benefits the weapon is irrelevant. For some, like the musket, it works out great because it fits the playstyle. For some, like the spear, probably not so great because I imagine they’d love to have a bit of a survivability bump and would prefer more damage from their primary damage stat if they could choose it. That doesn’t change the math, however. And it doesn’t change the far more important point:

Weapons are balanced holistically.

They don’t balance the bloody weapons and then slap the attribute scaling on them. If a given hybrid weapon is in a balanced state (by the dev’s assessment) right now, and they bumped up their scaling, they would just take damage out of the base weapon or abilities. If the weapon is balanced now and they bumped up their primary stat scaling which allowed the average user of that weapon to pump more con and they ended up being too durable on average they would just remove defenses elsewhere. Focusing on the minutia is next-level missing the point. Stats are only relevant insofar as they restrict weapon combos or customization options.

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Your assessment of the musket is incorrect, the glass build doesn’t work well compared to the spear for the reasons you mentioned. It works well, becuase the musket does not share the lower damage the other hybrid weapons have only putting in 300 stats. At 200/100 it outperforms the Bow, and because it already other performs with the base investment, a glass build it obviously going to do more.

That was my exact point that the base 300 (200/100) investment of the hybrids should be on parity or better, as is the case with the musket.

When you jump to the Musket as a good example of a hybrid weapon, I completely agree, because it it as I stated the balance should be (Hybrids should do more or the same damage as thier pure stat counterparts). Not like with all the underused hybrid weapons that see little use (outside of niche secondary options) due to lower damage for the same point investment.

You also seem flippant to other people’s experience, to someone who started an wanted to main the void gauntlet this is a relevant fact.

Just because I subscribe to a different persepective to you, does not mean I haven’t thought about it. I have tested different cases, and saw inconsistencies. The Musket case you mentioned is one of those inconsistencies, but to didn’t mention that the scaling is different for it, you instead jumped to it “does well due to playstyle as a glass cannon”. Were it is the actually the once expection I left out, it is does not follow the model of all the other hybrid weaken being weaker.

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I’m so confused here. So you’re trying to say that melee weapons like the GA and spear should do the same amount of damage with a left click(?) when they both max out their respective primary damage scaling trees. But I don’t think your opinion takes into account the other weapons speed, ability scaling, or the perks as well that gives the weapons other niches besides just pure damage. Like sure Execute can do 300% weapon damage if you’re below half but the animation is super telegraphed and easy to dodge/block since it has a relatively small hitbox. Sweep on the other hand has a much faster animation, a large hitbox, along with a follow up attack that with the perk can do a total of 262% weapon damage altogether. And you can create a build that makes this ability available to you 3-4 times more than Execute. You get where I’m going with this?

It’s about more than just pure damage numbers or even combo rotations. VG isn’t going to do the same amount of damage as a FS or IG, but you can make a more sustained build with VG that you can’t make with either weapon. Also VG applies some of the most important buffs/debuffs in an aoe along with being able to completely remove buffs from other players. No other weapon has impact like that.

I just think the lens you’re using to compare the weapons might be a little myopic.

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The musket has literally the exact same scaling as every other hybrid weapon.

Again, as I said before you are a very poor thinker and you need to keep rereading my first post until you understand where your flaws are. I laid out every single thing you are doing wrong so just keep at it until you see what you’re missing.

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