PvP vs PvE. What is more skill based?

so only 3v3 requires skill? What about 1v1?

You can only write so many lines of code, the human brains ability to recognize patterns and movement is vastly superior.

Humans > AI.

In an MMORPG I don’t feel any classes are truly balanced in PvP. You always end up with a flavour of the month rotation and class that “owns”, until that class is nerfed and another one is taking its place. Therefore gauging actual skill in an MMORPG PvP setting, is not that easy. A lot of players are “good” in PvP simply because they play - and switch - to the flavour of the month class.

PvE I feel requires only as much skill as the developers put into a raid encounter. It really comes down to memorising the boss abilities and attack patterns. However over time, boss encounters have become more and more complex. In both WoW and FF14 you see how end game content really becomes a check both in memorising the overlapping abilities as well coordination of the team.

Personally I’ve never been too much of a fan of PvP in MMORPGs because of the imbalance between skill and class. I’m never sure if I lose because I need to improve or because the class is just wonky as F. WoW has taught me that flavour classes changes all the time so what is actual skill based is anyone’s guess.

PVE is more skilled based because mobs can be created to be group encounters and PVP is always a rock, paper, scissor - 1 vs 1 in design which makes it more reaction based. And just as a little dig - If PVP was skill based there would be addons to help assist with it…

Both do require an understanding of the mechanics involved in not only your build, but what you are fighting and how to min / max.

PvP and PvE each require different skills.

The difficulty level in PvP depends on the skill of the opponent. Very good players are also only challenged when fighting against very good opponents. For most in PvP, it’s also not about the challenge to meet a strong opponent, but to suppress the weaker ones with their own skill.

Even in PvP, there are attack patterns that average players use over and over again, especially when there is little variety, as in New World. Real crisp and well thought-out PvP battles that require all the skills of a single pro as well as a pro group are extremely rare.

In PvE, a completely different skill set is required. Here, it is simply a matter of concentration and stimulus overload. Time is a particularly powerful tool here. The harder the difficulty level, the more fatal error queries take place per time unit.

To take an example from the Souls-Like Games. You’ve already defeated a certain opponent 1000 times and know exactly that you’ll only get through 2 hits in a certain time window, and yet you hit him a third time and get a oneshot for it.

But also in PvE it’s not about always finding the new hard challenge. The main motivation for most players is to find rewards, regardless of which resistances have to be overcome and which efforts have to be expended.

PvP and PvE are two completely different directions that encourage and demand completely different skills and experiences.

Except, many of these faction vs faction PVP or even Open World PVP turn into blob vs blob mentality and you cannot say a blob is competitive as typically you rely more on luck then skill. Lucky you landed the shots before you opponents did and lucky if you got away because players are mass targeting another player right now. The only real competitive PVP would be 1v1, and then in cases 1v2, 1v3, etc respectfully. So I would still not agree that there is a huge or steeper learning curve for PvP vs PvE as they both have their merits, and approaches.

Most players also learn to use set patterns and are not reacting to a fight, they are just chaining combos and timing they have proven can win. When they do lose, they may modify that combo slightly, but its still the same. This is why I often feel people get frustrated when their weapons are adjusted negatively, its because all that so proclaimed skill goes out the window because they need to memorize a new pattern.

Think about Football, rarely do they ever switch to an absolutely new type of play, typically they stick to conventual play that works then gamble. So, technically, its still patterns and its not like PVP in this game has huge consequences. In fact, PVE has more consequences for dying then PVP.

Some PvE, like bosses, can be difficult but once ‘the dance’ is figured out, always become routine encounters. This is because all PvE is fixed, the mobs or bosses always have the same attacks and same stats.

IN PvP, players will adapt and change up (at least if they are average+, the baddies come to forums and complain). So PvP is always more challenging and skill based, at least when each side is ‘roughly equal’. That last statement is the key, that doesn’t happen often enough in any MMO but it happens. Still, it is another element, you have to be able to recognize when at an advantage or disadvantage and change up tactics accordingly. So many PvPers just do the same thing over and over, no matter what, then complain. It is pretty annoying.

Yes, but programmers can use randomizes, much as how folks do not like the randomness of crafting and stats, to increase PVE mobs difficulties. In some ways, the mobs could be easier to kill, or they could be more difficult to kill. The same is for players, some players are not as difficult as mobs to take out and other players can leave you wanting. Programmers could make mobs extremely difficult, so even though they have a pattern, they may require additional folks to help kill. The same applies in PVP, when you cannot kill another player, you call on your friends to come help wreck that persons day. So was it really skill? Or was it the same pattern that happens in every supposedly competitive game when 1 player loses to another player.

I would enjoy that, along with better AI, there is some randomness here and in other MMOs, but really not all that much.

Would really enjoy much better AI and more randomness to stats and how mobs aggro, at least for half the mobs and all bosses. Always leave some ‘brain dead’ mobs for those who want to relax and grind without thinking too much, but PvE really needs to be spiced up in all MMOs. I really thought that would happen by now…

As an example (which may also show why no MMOs have it), way back in DAoC they setup a spot where you basically could fight an ‘enemy group’ of players. They were NPCs that cast mez, used stuns, attacked the healer, etc. A simple PvP encounter… I thought it was great, but hardly anyone ever went there to PvE. Most players just don’t want to think much (usually, as in change up and react and what not), which is understandable, many want to relax and just play and chat. Which is why PvP is not as popular as many PvPers think. Most MMO players want over 50%+ “relaxed content” and just do harder stuff (like PvP) every now and then. Obviously there are ranges, but clearly most prefer “relaxed” v what we are discussing.

They removed hit-stun and added things like random crit chance.

They devs don’t want this game to be skill-based.

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also if you are talking pvp / pve games then they are not balanced for pvp when you need the holy trinity group design for pve encounters. High dps classes can one shot you if they get the jump, CC classes can lock down people, 2 healers can fight each other forever because their dps doesn’t outpace their main function of healing. There are mechanics built into most PVP encounters that dps can’t overcome because it’s not balanced for it. WoW ended up giving every class a means to break CC, heal, dps so you were basically the same as everyone else.

i didnt play alpha but i heard the interrupt was basically inescapable and made hatchets the top weapon. sounded pretty awful, tbh. and yes i think crits are stupid but at least they had the foresight to put resilience in the game.

The interrupt was inescapable if you mashed buttons. There were gaps after nearly every attack. Just basic frame data concepts you’d find in any fighting game. There were also immunity windows if you got hit multiple times in succession.

Crits are fine with me, random crits are not. Back stabs and headshots? Sure. Randomly getting one because you clicked LMB enough times. Not so much.

PVP will always be more skill based.

Developers intentionally make AI beatable.

Humans do everything in their power to not lose.

For sure, I love to do stuff with the friends I have made in the game. If its PVP, sure, but sometimes my friends are not on, so when they are not on, I just want to relax a bit and of course, meet new folks who might become my friends. For me, MMOs may have had a history in the beginning for hardcore PVP, but it certainly adapted to more of a jack of most trades with the key element being social. Sadly, most games have become less social with their encounters then they once were because they required hard work. In the holy trinity, folks would skill up to be great healers, great tanks, and great DPS, else they would be left behind. Often, these roles required skill by maintaining a pattern, as one failed move could lead to a full wipe.

I remember in DAOC when they introduced the dragons, I remember my server took 300 players to begin with and we wiped fast. Next we tried a second time with 150 and wiped. Finally at 200, we were successful barely. The funny thing about it is, a year later, folks figured out a way to kill it with 8 people (a full group). Now folks could argue that this was a pattern, some can claim it was luck, but I will be honest, it required skill. The same type of a skill a real sports star require in the fields. Think about it, if the hockey star is a half a second late, they can miss the shot, etc. Those were epic times for sure. Now, folks just want a single player game they can chat in and/or they can go kill other players 59 levels below them.

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I think same as you, PVP is boring, run shoot, dodge, heal, run shoot, shoot, dodge, heal, endlessly.

Swimming, the hardest thing to do here.

By the amount of whining we see on the forums? PvE by far. I’ve never seen a larger bunch of cry baby PvPers in any game ever before. Just the amount of tears and needed compassion, and atta boys needed. It is quite sad.

Yes, but the potential for change and for the unexpected is there. The same is not true with the AI.

Also, more serious players are also trying to figure out and combat your patterns as well. The AI in this game doesn’t do that.