PvP Will Always fail in the multiplayer RPG Genre

I don’t say this because I think PvP sucks. I think it’s rather cool that if you’re navigating a world, especially one as large as New World that you can come across unsavory players who try to kill you for now reason.

No I’m not being sarcastic, I legitimately think that aspect of gameplay can keep someone on edge, a rather intense style of gameplay. But, this will always fail and it has to do with a core concept of MMORPGs that has not evolved since its inception. The numbers game.

If someone is lv20 and someone else is lv60 and they fight, 99% of the time, that lv60 is going to win and this is because their numbers are bigger than the lv20s. No amount of skill is going to close this gap. This is why many PvE players usually go to FPS games for PvP where fights are a bit more balanced and technical (Until you have to deal with campers).

To fix this, in my opinion, what needs to be implemented is an equipment system which provides certain benefits but not stats. Examples?:

A sniper scope on a musket for zoom function

A legendary thread to a bow which can enhance draw? strength for higher arrow distance

Enchanted arrows for higher pierce

Magic enchantments on melee weapons to cause status effects and not stat bonuses(limited slots)

Magic enchantments on armor to increase resistance to damage in general or to certain status effects and not stat bonuses (limited slots)

Those are just a few.
With increasing stats and legendary gear, eventually, the numbers become so big that it’s pointless to PvP knowing that your skill means nothing before the supremacy of numbers.

FPS games are successful because those numbers do not matter when the player is skilled enough to score a headshot whilst in motion and accounting for weapon recoil and all that.

So yeah, in closing, whilst PvP is fun, it eventually fails because the numbers system for mmorpgs has never evolved past its inception. The move to an action system from tab targetting was the first major step, now there’s need for a second.

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There was PvP scaling in the beta which a level 30 could drop a level 60. They removed that.

Muskets have a x3 In the Sniper tree.

Earlier iterations of the game where skill was prioritized over gear and levels, but people came here and complained about it.

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And that’s the thing, eventually everyone will reach max level, everyone will have the same equipment because everyone will aim for the same legendary equipment and then eventually they’ll complain again that PvP is too lackluster making it an endless cycle.

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You can say that for any form of content when there barely is any though. Realistically theres just not much going on in New World end game and if all they are going to due is just raise the watermark and not drop much in terms of quality end game content people will quit.

PvP fails primarily because of a certain game design: you can’t mix PvP enthusiasts with any randoms or newbies. That divides the player base.

You have to make sure that you always have players on the same level competing against each other in PvP.

The best way to do this is with a bracket system. Players with the necessary commitment or talent can quickly work their way up in the bracket system and sooner or later meet other players of the same level.

But even this system is not perfect. The biggest weakness of this system is that it classifies players. Classicism is poison, poison is toxic.

I say this saying that even if they implement multiple types of gear sets or weapon sets, as long as they have a system whereby numbers make for supremacy, it’s basically a game of rock paper scissors in that x beat y but y beat z. There’s no skill when it turns into a numbers game.

Ever wonder why fps games get away with a limited number of maps? It’s because they cater to skill based gameplay and not numbers. S4 league, an third person shooter, tried that and the population started to die. Fast.

Without fail that’s what happens everytime you bring disproportionately large numbers into the mix, players stop seeing the point and just leave.

What armor sets need to do is provide function not stats. They gave away too much of that in the early game which has everything more or less work the same just with bigger numbers on it.

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I’d argue that you can mix the two in some capacity provided the environment is setup properly.

Having the current system of my numbers are bigger than yours? Nope. Never going to work and long term, when bigger number sets are released, this is going to just be a cycle where newer players are forced out of pvp due to the sheer number requirement.

There’s also the fact that it needs some kind of balancing system implemented for it like bounties or wandering guards/pk assassin npcs which hover around players suitable for an area.

Either way I agree that there isn’t a perfect way yo mesh the two. The numbers game they have going on most certainly isn’t the way tho.

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Wpvp is not something that has to be fair.

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There will naturally be more skilled players, yes but using sheer stat numbers to make that balanced is truly not the best design in the long term.

Every dead mmorpg proves that whether they had weapons in the cash shop or not.

The numbers game just turns people off, especially in old mmorpgs

GW2 is the best example of rpg pvp. Most honest design ever. Items are nothing, skill and meta is everything)

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I started in UO, the Devs said the difference between someone at character creation vs max skill on a weapon skill was 5%. The PvP armor and weapons were player crafted everyone was fighting with the same gear stats. Most Pks had to cast spells from scrolls made by someone else (I mainly sold scrolls at that point of the game) I watched 2 stat loss pks, drop 7 players from a guild, where the pks were basically starting characters and the 7 from the guild were fully developed.

So when you talk about levels, that is an aberration brought on by PvE players that needed to keep spinning the wheel. Why create so much content that people are going to ignore once they are past it unless they make alts? Why keep up an endless demand for content that devs can never meet fast enough? (Unless they make ultra difficult raids less than 5% of the population will be able to complete)

MMO games should be broad not tall, that is the place PvP has. But the structured leveling MMO turns the games into a sort of gambling addition, give people endless rewards to feel good about while you take their money.

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Auto Aim that you could buy on Amazon and have it delivered by Prime

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They had their formula with the combat system and a better playing field early on for sure.

Other than the copious amounts of noise on these forums, I cannot understand why they through it away.

Maybe broken shit is more profit than a good, functioning system.

Asherons Call was skill over gear and levels early on too. I remember being level 50 and dropping level 150s like flies.

I agree with this and I hope that the power creep brought on by the watermark hamster wheel is brought into place again.

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Few things to consider:

  1. The main point of MMO in grinding for level and gear is to become stronger. If lvl 30 char with shit gear can drop max lvl with legendary gear, then whats the point in getting better eq and higher lvl? Unless your end game goal is to have shiny armor to make everyone jelous of how shiny it is…

  2. PVP in MMO’s work really great and there’s numerous examples where it works perfectly. But we need to remember that PVP should not be just some game mode, but it needs to be incorporated in the game same as PVE. To protect low lvl people from being murked by high lvls you either add safe zones (which is lazy approach) or add deterants sutch as karma/murder system, where if someone kills someone who doesnt want to fight, they get penalties and punishment, which needs to be balanced also, punishment should be not too big and not too small, so that you can still do it ocasionally, but not all the time.

  3. A lot of people divide PVP and PVE players, but dont realise that big majority of players enjoy both and only small extreemes do either one or the other. If a game caters to a one of the extreemes, its a niche game. I know, many will argue that the most succesfull mmos in terms of player cout are pve mmo’s, but most of them are just single player games with coop, just masked as mmo, as most content can be done solo, with little to none human interaction.

  4. And this brings me to last point, best actual mmo’s require people to play together, talk, negotiate, etc. Focus on specific jobs and not be jack of all trades with one person being able to craft gather and do everything at max lvl in single month.

It is, for a while and then it isn’t.

  1. The point of gear is to provide an advantage of having more tools available not to create a wall or to provide pseudo god-mode. That’s what a numbers system does, instead of provide additional tools with level, it just increases the numbers to a point where your skill is irrelevant.

Examples of skill based implements:

Lv60 Mage has a passive reactive barrier that blocks x amount of incoming projectiles whilst a lv30 does not. After losing said shield, their HP isn’t so insurmountable that they cannot be beaten. The shield also takes a number of attacks with their power magnitude being irrelevant.

Legendary gear providing passive status effects like hp regeneration, projectile shield, contact attack reflection for % of attack, resistance to specific status effects like poison, bonuses to pierce, double jump ability, blink ability. The ppint being that instead of grossly increasing numbers, they increase functionality. So yes, you have your legend gear but it does not make you invincible once the player figures out a way around it.

Getting higher leveled shouldn’t completely do away with the numbers but they shouldn’t be implemented in a way that it provides God mode. Instead of blindly boosting attack and defense, boost motion speed and stamina efficiency. There are ways to make level provide benefit without having it provide god-mode.

  1. A lot of mmos have died because a lot of new players come in, find the gap insurmountable and just end up leaving because of the effort required to catch up. Nothing is wrong with PvP as a concept but having the current system, 5 years later how well do you think it’s going to work out when they implement 5 more legendary sets, each harder to get than the last and each requiring you to have the last set or rely on higher leveled players. With the numbers system no longer providing God-mode, you’d have players looking for creative ways to deal with high leveled over-geared freaks of nature.

  2. I’d say a lot of players try to involve the two but most just glance over the isolated stories of lv30s getting ganked by 3 lv60s or of such equivalent making them find it pointless until they reach the level cap and then have to wait until they get legendary gear. FPS games handle this by allowing for stealth based gameplay being a thing. Someone winning a 1v3 in an FPS game isn’t unheard of. In an rpg, it’s stupid because all you have is numbers saying who wins and who dies.

  3. This doesn’t mean it should give out free God-mode against new players. Fair gameplay would dictate that the time spent to get to lv60 means that they are more familiar with the naunces of combat and are more likely to win. It does not mean they get automatic god-mode. That’s not very balanced for PvP. PvE though, it will work and it will work well because it is expected that as you go through the world, you become more experienced and certain enemies no longer affect you. The balance between the two should be in the form of a numbers system that provides functional benefit rather than stat benefit which creates a wall between newbies and old players.

Bro just get to level 60???

And then farm faction gear, legendary gear, wait for more gear types to be released, probably"mythic" or “ancient” and get bigger numbers yes?

Albion Online has been doing nothing but gaining players. BAD PvP in an RPG will always fail. No clue why everyone thinks every single MMORPG needs to have PvP that revolves around gear.