@Synrec has a point though. The PK system or the iteration of one was tried and failed in fact so much that the lead dev lost his job(or was demoted not sure).
It also showed two important poins:
-consequences don’t matter all that much (loss of gear didn’t deter anyone)
-relying on playerbase to police behavior is not a good strategy (gankers simply outlasted those who were trying to protect the new players)
Yes this system could have been improved, but ultimately I think it would never scale up to large enough nimbers to sustain a 300+ person studio.
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300+ infrastructure?
Games don’t need Riot or Blizzard games policing, I could literally make a book on why people are upsetting others on League of Legends for instance, it’s 99% the systems faults.
Why even create a game or system in the first place if it needs controlling, that in itself is bad design. I’ll give you one simple example, when you win a Tekken match the winner is disabled from any actions afterward, so automatically, teabagging and any other actions are impossible (and you choose to opt out of that filter). This is one tiny example to something that sorts out a lot of problems, filters and deny systems can be expanded and evolved for many systems, I’m as solid as a brick mentally and I won’t need them but I would like the idea that it could accommodate more people who don’t want to interact with all or some of the different forms of immaturity in actions or verbally.
Turn off PvP before lvl 60, turn off seeing reactions, turn off whatever but denying the playerbase from eachother with opt in or out flag systems? It’s ridiculous, you’re hurting your game’s potential and making the playerbase as a whole more frustrated because when good supportive players like me quit (now I know you’ll find that hard to believe!) it will eventually lead to you being frustrated due to that deflated circle of a less dedicated player base.
Now you’re basically agreeing that RPG systems don’t facilitate PvP properly which is the point of this thread.
The point of RPGs are to level up. Locking that off just means that you want a battlegrounds game that you have to wait to play.
There are other games out there that let you do this immediately.
Again, no point.
Also, it is why PvP players are the absolute minority on MMORPGs.
Still no solid evidence as to why Amazon has to even make a PvP server when they already did this and it failed.
These are all great ideas and you should write a book, but do you have any evidence that they actually work?
Sure the evidence that pvp mmos don’t work well is not scientific (there were no double blind studies with control groups etc), but there is a strong empirical evidence lasting over two decades.
As you pointed out in the other thread I am business person “why can’t he get better at his business to retire and play games hardcore” - so if somebody comes to me with great idea, that goes against 20 years of empirical evidence I would be extremely reticent to try it.
Not replying to this immaturity, you’ve had your shot.
Prove your maturity, provide evidence that PvP servers will benefit Amazon despite years of evidence from other MMORPGs that have died, the fact that people can access PvP easier in other game genres and the fact that Amazon themselves have tested this and it failed spectacularly.
Well the gaming landscape is a difficult one, much like the competition landscape of the net, Youtube/Twitter/Facebook/Google/Reddit, anything else is cheese, how is it possible to successfully conclude enough evidence to strongly support that the majority of people only want a mainly tranquil and PvE co-op experience without any PvP to co-exist with it.
Korea is a part of the world where PvP mmo’s are succeeding, now we’re all human, I very much doubt our trains of thought are that much different and League of Legends and FPS are monster popular PvP franchises that succeeded in both NA and EU massively. There are lots of people who love fantasy, therefore with all this said there must be a lot of them who would like PvP or to play a competition/sport within the realm of fantasy,
I’m right on this anyway, nothing will convince me otherwise, people just need to believe in the evolution and “honest” production of games (you know, not bending to investor’s). I refuse to believe that WoW is still one of the pinnacle’s of the genre, at grandpa age and that FF14 is the top dog of it all, utterly ridiculous when critical thinking is applied.
They are brilliant convenience games, surviving comfortably in the competitive market as that is practically a desert and a tumbleweed most of the time!
It’s not ridiculous because numbers show your opinion is wrong. The companies earnings also show your opinion is wrong.
You don’t want to believe it because it’s not what you what. However, I don’t play WoW or FF14 but numbers say the type of game play loop presented is what a lot of people want.
I’m not speaking a foreign language here, so I’ll quote myself.
They are brilliant convenience games, surviving comfortably in the competitive market as that is practically a desert and a tumbleweed most of the time!
Claims maturity, goes on to present yet another argument completely lacking of any evidence whatsoever.
Dude, where is your PROOF.
Saying they perform better is not an argument here when amazon has presented actual evidence that it fails.
Show they are better.
Bring numbers, comparisons, charts.
Not crap like they perform better and leave it at that.
Amazon, I’m not sure why I feel inclined to just randomly burst this out, but
Is there any chance you can bring ((checks list)) ((wets fingers and points pen at imaginary mind note))
numbers, comparisons and,charts? to support your evidence for PvP?
I know that’s hard to believe but anyway, get it done!
Cannot comment on Korean MMOs because I am jot familiar with any of them.
LoL and FPS are not MMOs with PERSISTENT worlds. That is the key difference - pvp can and does succeed in the situations where you have resets that let you try again. That’s why professional sports have seasons and not just carry on playing forever.
Lets for a moment assume you are right.
It is then the same argument as pop music vs classical music. I agree, people need to be exposed to classical music because otherwise they will never know it. The difference is though that by and large society determined that any form of “Artis Magna” be it music, theatre, ballet or painting are beneficial to society and these genres operate somewhat outside of market with government subsidies, otherwise ticket to philarmony or theatre would cost literally 10,000$+. That allows them to attrqct audiences who would otherwise never be interested in this and some of them stay behind so to speak.
But, obviously the same cannot be applied to pvp mmo, so pvp mmos are always going to be tiniest of minorities because just like most people would prefer Britney Spears to Shubert, most people will prefer safe and relaxing pve to stress inducing pvp
I’m right on this anyway, nothing will convince me otherwise, people just need to believe in the evolution and “honest” production of games (you know, not bending to investor’s). I refuse to believe that WoW is still one of the pinnacle’s of the genre, at grandpa age and that FF14 is the top dog of it all, utterly ridiculous when critical thinking is applied.
They are brilliant convenience games, surviving comfortably in the competitive market as that is practically a desert and a tumbleweed most of the time!
“I refuse to believe that WoW is still one of the pinnacle’s of the genre at grandpa age and that FF14 is the top dog of it all”
I literally commented on what you said.
I still find that opinion a damning preference and I’ll have to return to it I’m sorry.
@Indignation Please no salt, just create an actual constructive point.
Already did.
Better yet, just browse any MMORPG VS FPS debate and you get the whys.
Even better, Amazon tried it and it failed so the burden of proof is squarely on you.
You’re dodging the conversation
I am confused. How is this “damning preference”?
If WoW and FF didn’t exist, pvp mmos would still not have enough players. If other video games genres didn’t exist pvp mmos would still not have enough players. You seem to not understand that yoy cannot MAKE people play the game (unless you pay them) if they dont find the game to their tastes.
For the sake of maintaining some form of power gain via the grind that is the foundation in most MMOs, there has to be some sort of number gap. To keep things fair, that being said, there needs to be a system in place to ensure that this power generated from the number gap isn’t abused. By that I mean that we need to prevent griefing newer players, or players who simply cannot play as often for whatever reason, such that their will to continue playing remains. There are a number of ways to do that… the two most successful ways have been with damage scaling and with segmented level brackets.
EQ2 did this flawlessly, in my opinion. They implemented level brackets in every zone in the game - say you were level 24 and the bracket for whatever zone you were in was +/-8… the highest level character that you could attack (unless they attacked you first) would be a level 16, and the highest level player that could attack you (without you attacking them first) would be a level 32.
This, in conjunction with their fame and title progression system, prevented higher level players from griefing newer/lower level players. The fame and title system they had prevented you from getting any rewards at all from killing a player that wasn’t within 1 rank of your own. That’s a whole separate conversation to be had, though, and is actually one of the biggest reasons that EQ2 pvp survived as long as it did.
Scaling, which is the route that NW took (and did very well with), basically evens out the play field as much as is reasonable between your example of a level 20 and a level 60. The level 60 still has access to an extreme advantage in the number of perks they have, which will also be stronger due to higher GS, on their equipment, they have more stat threshold bonuses, and their weapon mastery will also likely be much higher and provide more to their kit. So, the advantage is certainly still there for the level 60… that being said, the action combat system still allows for massive outplay potential, and the level 20 can still win. This style of gameplay rewards avoiding taking damage much more than hitting your attacks or abilities. Is the chance high? Not by any means - but it is still possible. Is it possible to 1vX? Very. But, you have to play extremely well, and manage everything well (consumables, stamina, cooldowns). It isn’t as extreme as a level 20 besting a level 60, but I’ve won quite a few uneven fights - I was 48 and killed a 60, and as a 50 I killed a 51 and 58 in a 1v2 while doing pvp missions in Restless Shores.
I don’t think that PvP will always fail because of the inherent design of MMOs - I think it will always fail because people complain too much about a system that isn’t actually broken, and because too many people enjoy the power trip they get from “exerting their dominance” on the lower level players, for a near-guaranteed win. They need to feel like they’re good, feed their ego, etc… for whatever reason. That’s the main reason pvp will fail in MMOs. People know they get an advantage over others by playing more and leveling more, then abuse that power/number gap because that makes them feel good.
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While yes these systems are implemented, it doesn’t deter from the fact that what you have implemented is in fact a battlegrounds sub-genre in mmorpgs, a common method of PvP balance but one that doesn’t really make it beneficial to implement PvP as a focus.
It still won’t make people take up an mmorpg for the sake of PvP because in true battlegrounds games, you get this action instantly with everyone having the same starting point.
So yes, I agree, but PvE will still win because it does not solve the core issue.
Those “PvP” mmo’s, that aren’t ofc strictly PvP per say, they are more easily known as “the grind fests” are automatically low due to, infact, the grind fest, I quit Archeage Unchained not so long ago even though I had a decent monopoly over a decent portion of the playerbase (thanks mainly to a good friend), simply because I’m working to hard to meet the levels of competition + a lack of verstality when it came to gearing (not anyting to do with content weaponry like how WoW does its business, I’m talking about diversity in equipment that broaden the scope of class builds).
As a supportive player, I deem it unfair as hell, I don’t like competeting when there is people weaker than me, this is why Archeage Unchained is a failure, which has nothing to do with the PvP aspect, it’s all to do with the game’s growth and versatility systems (1 prime example of where korean mmo’s fail for the west is that there are usually classes that are way more optimal for PvE grinding, I’d confidently say that the west has a more versatile and passionate mindset regarding this).
It’s disgusting of me to weigh them simply because they there are aspects of these games I’ll mention that have some great strengths over western mmo’s but the likes of BDO, Archeage and Lineage 2 die in popularity because primarily they are grind fests, that has nothing to do with the PvP aspect. The reasons they succeed in Korea is that they are listening to korean feedback, while the west can’t do anything while they are published over here due to limitations with communications and changes from their seller.
PLUS It’s an accepted culture over there to spend more time on tech, increasing success of these mmo’s.
These are the 3 main reasons why and again, I say, nothing to do with the PvP aspects.
@Bars ofc you’re right, based off what I’ve said they would still very much be low numbers!
If a more systems were introduced to publisher’s or a western made game, PvP could easily be a main feature alongside the rest of the game (however much PvE is deemed necessary), not just as a game mode like the Arena’s in WoW and GW2. Obviously those systems can’t stretch too far from what you enjoy from an mmo, a pleasent experience, so things like “We’ll give PvP these rewards or PvE these rewards” would have to be closely and carefully looked into. The simplest systems for PvP reward are obviously player rankings much like what has kept the LoL base addicted as it doesn’t hurt the 1 hour or 2 a day player not participating in any of the “meaty sweat lord action” (dunno why I said this but anyway) for some shitty many reward based alternative.
I really do want something to which everyone can be connected, the current top of the mmo genre almost completely fucks off the mindset of the competitive and sports type players, although I’m sure yourself don’t mind interacting with such things from time to time, some of us couldn’t stomach being a part of the likes of ff14 at all.