PvP Will Always fail in the multiplayer RPG Genre

You can’t wage war on gold farmers. Gold farms look for any method in the game which grants gold and exploit that using bots, hacks or manual effort. Gold farmers get paid real money to do what they do. You are not. Eventually, they will win.

To stop gold farmers, Amazon themselves must step in and modify aspects of game design to stop them from earning even 1 gold in game.

War dynamics would be less frequent which means less PvP which means you then have to do more PvE. Not a good argument.

There won’t be much dynamic change other than allowing players with bigger numbers to freely bully players with smaller numbers in what is called “Zerging” from what I understand. You already get PvP in normal servers and there is no justification to implement a pure PvP server when anyone who joins has to play stealth mode all the way up until lv60 when they can finally PvP fairly.

No one joins an MMORPG for PvP, they usually go to FPS games because they allow for very creative playstyle.

eg: Battlefield 3 - RendeZook - YouTube
You can’t tell me skilled plays like that shouldn’t be rewarded.

Meanwhile in MMORPGs, you have this unkillable dude who you have to get bigger numbers for to fight fairly.

It’s truly not even a comparison.

MMORPG PvP sucks.

Seems that last line makes me thinks your argument was about proving your bias to yourself. That’s fine if that’s your take on it.

But most of the games I’ve seen here used as examples are bad anecdotes to why they failed when most of them were just mismanaged.

Zerging really is anecdotal itself for not having PvP servers, does it occur? Yes, but should the game be built with skillful combat then 1 player should be able to handle a few players and the superior, smaller, elite group of PvPers can destroy a zerg with relatively ease.

I literally play MMORPGS/MMOs for high fantasy PVP, not to make friends, not to listen to people complain about PvPers or toxicity, because they are not apart of my equation of fun, I come here because I enjoy PVP in the high fantasy setting. People wouldn’t be here if they werent asking for PVP servers and Valhalla, the #1 server in NA is the unofficial PvP server and people wouldn’t be trying to transfer there if PvP is an abject failure.

Anecdotes, conjecture, and assumptions aside; where is the real evidence that PvP fails in the high fantasy setting? Because it’s severely lacking on these forums, all evidence points to the contrary.

New World is failing, because after bugs, exploits, and other silliness, people left; should those bugs, exploitts, and other silliness never existed, they would have left anyway because theres hardly endgame content outside of territory wars, or, and invasions.

After changing so many things it still has very little in terms of offerings. With Valhalla being the server to actually collect data from, that’s the server to emulate to regain the games population. That’s where New Worlds content needs to be centered around.

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You claim most of the games used as examples are bad anecdotes when I say all or rather nearly all dead mmorpgs have had this numbers problem with regards to PvP. The ones that didn’t had really good PvP features until they stopped service due to being severely outdated.

Nothing wrong with open world PvP but when you can’t kill the guy that endlessly chases you or even slow them down in some way or the other, what the heck do you think is PvP about that? The other player isn’t trying to fight, they’re trying to RUN.

Your reasons for playing an MMORPG for fantasy PvP mean nothing. If they wanted balance, other than numbers, they could allow high level crafters create traps and scrolls for low level player self defense. It’s a band-aid solution but it’ll work wonderfully until it comes to PvE where some guy spams high level scrolls and traps and clears everything because monsters in this game are stupid beyond all reason. Not to mention other factors which need to be implemented for such a mechanic to even work.

New world indeed does have a lot of negative press but so far they have not been doing any mis-management besides breaking the game with currently bad patches which is easy to handle… for them. You also forget that this is Amazon. If they want to advertise New World, they can and it’d be up in your face at any time they want given their influence. Unless they get some serious backlash like that horrendous coding with the chat box which apparently wasn’t as serious for them as I thought it’d be, New World isn’t going anywhere anytime soon.

And this…:

Every single perfect world sponsored game, just to kick things off. Cept maybe neverwinter. Haven’t played that in ages.

Archeage:
We need an Archeage Classic Release ! (archeagegame.com)
game all ready dying down (archeagegame.com)

Lineage:
PK system - Suggestion Box - Forums (lineage2.com) Apparently PK is removed?

New World:
[PVP][Outpost Rush] 2 man spawncamping half our team [Life staff] - General Discussion / General Discussion - New World Forums

Most fantasy mmorpgs are spawns of mis-management, yes but this is because WESTERN players do not like numbers games.

They always initially start off with a smaller player base compared to games of other genres BECAUSE of this numbers game.

They have to struggle to create content to satisfy players but what can you do other than make content to increase your numbers more?

etc etc I don’t need to list much reasons here. The statistics on general populations of FPS and sports games prove this. They also generally live much longer compared to MMORPGs which are hands down bigger investments.

You’re basically saying to ignore all the statistical data proving MMORPG PvP sucks in favour of trying to pander a selfish interest in Fantasy PvP. MMORPGs have evolved from tab targeting where even if your sword goes through the player character, it could have still registered as a miss.

The numbers don’t add up.

Also, discussion threads:
MMORPGs vs. FPS - Which type of game do YOU stand? — MMORPG.com Forums
Shooter vs. MMORPG : INTP (reddit.com)
MMORPG vs. FPS! - PC Gaming - Neowin

FPS games are generally regarded for having better PvP.
MMORPGs using action systems have a similarity to FPS PvP.
Yes it makes sense to compare the two in that regard.

No it will not make PvP worse because even if those elite PvPers go around killing players, nothing is stopping ANYONE from making a stand and putting an arrow in their necks from stealth. They still die as normal rather than have a stupid numbers shield that just makes players give up immediately.

This why we need a real pvp setup on separate servers. Those of us who like pvp and less pve dont want a lv 20 to be able to beat a lv 60 unless super skilled. We like the unbalsced setup of Someone who created an advanges over another player, by lvl, items or Numbers of people. We enjoy the no-safe zones and that items drop on death.

To me, playing NW without pvp is like soccer with 22 ppl on one team and 0 on the other. A lot of pointless goals

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This game is based around PvP. If its not for you thats fine. There are other games out there.

They removed the pay barrier and then gained massive ammount of players. They got F2P.

I would really like to see how many players are in green, yellow, red or black zones. I would bet that its a single digit of total players that is actively doing black zones. All other zones, the PvP is optional.

Oh, a small hint: “i see dozens of players” is an invalid argument when it comes to the overall community of the game. Official, reliable numbers only please. Everything else is just assumptions.

Just like people assume that full loot PvP is highly popular due to the peak numbers of ARK, ignoring that with8n those numbers most playercounts come from PvE, regulated private servers and singleplayer numbers as the majority.

Who told you that fairytale? Oh, or are you stuck in time before AGS changed the concept from a full loot open PvP focus game to a PvE sandpark fame with optional PvP?

New World is in fact NOT a PvP focused game. Get your information straight. Wars and OPR are only a small part of Endgame content. Not the top of all.

I tried OPR and No Fun anymore.

Only thing i See is GA and dead

Yep, I think it is they are about as compatible as mixing ice cream and steak in a blender.

PvP and PvE need to address different variables. Only so many variables can be use until the subroutines are too expensive. So as I keep saying you are getting a jumble of mixed players that don’t mix, and the material is blah like ice cream and steak mixed.

Having a Meta is not Skill!

If there is a Meta ,what Skill is there?
The Skill is have all the Meta saysyou need and Push Buttons in right Order.
That is the only Skill you need when Meta exist.

Actually a GA Team Timing AoE is “the Skill”

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I dont understand why people compare action MMORPG with FPS when action games have more in common with fighting games. What are the reasons for you to make the comparison between MMORPG and FPS?
Arcade FPS are stupidily easy to go into, on sport game like football/ soccer/ basketball people can have a reaction of 1000 ms and still be able to thrive in those games. Now If we take a comparison from n° of players between fighting game and FPS/sport games how it looks like and what are the reasons for those games to have those numbers?

I also want to react on what you wrote from the begining.
While your take on the subject is commendable you have some critical flaws to your understanding of what make an action game.You cant have a scaling on attack speed and movement speed on a traditionnal action game(keyword “traditionnal”) without breaking the core of the game on any well design action game, while on a FPS it is not a bigdeal to have a +20% movement speed but it is completely unfair to have a -20% recoil or -20% spread and is in essence what you wrote, on both Action game and FPS scaling with damage/hp pools is way less detrimental than scaling on attack speed/movement speed for action game and scaling on recoil/recoil pattern/spread for FPS.

There is also some reasons as why people love to PvP on a persistent MMORPG world that you ignore and it is because of the dimension of a persistant Open world you cant have on any session based game( either arena/time limited map game), i’m an action gamer who dont like(much) arena, i like battling with hundreds of peeps around me, i like intricate deep and engaging combat system, i like PvP on a persistant Open world, i dont like the current surival game because their combat system is not intricate and not deep therefore not engaging for me (and food/water system is meh for me), the like of me are the never thought once gaming demography, we cant have our cake and eat it too and we are forced to either go into MMORPG or staying into action game,
Full 3D fighting game on a persistent Open world game when? Probably never.The closest was BDO and i waited for a game like this for more than a decade and result?I played it 8/12 h a day for 3 year+ a bit then i had to flee from it because of the direction of the game inducing a love-hate relationship with way more hate than love on the end.

Even if you like it, you must convince Amazon as to why they must invest in it when other MMORPGs have tried and failed to see success with it.

There is no way in hell New World is comparable to a fighting game. If you think so please provide ANY fighter game which is comparable.

Comparison to FPS games are made because of the dynamic of exploring the map, using stealth play where necessary or just straight up quick skirmishes.

What part of the core of the game would be broken and why? Increasing attack speed is normal in some mmos it just needs to be capped after a certain point.

On what basis do you say this? Every mmorpg has complaints from its player base about obscenely large health pools of higher leveled players. It’s easy to go to almost any mmorpg forum and grab these complaints.

In fact, in some games it’s not even the obscenely large health pools, it’s just the design of it itself like right here in New World where you have players complaining about heavy armor and light staff.

New World isn’t a survival MMO. Battleground (Garena, PUBG) games employ the 1vMany and they thrive despite having an abysmal amount of content.

Your stance is wrong.

MMORPGs are not comparable to fighting games and never will be unless you have some different idea of what a fighting game is.

the point of his thread though is that the design of combat where the winner of a fight is predetermined, is going to destroy pvp in the long term. This is accurate.

People are OK with a little bit of it, but most are not willing to lose for 100+ hours before they can win.

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OOF dude…

Action MMORPG, i didnt wrote tab-target MMORPG. Your comparison is irrelevant though.

My post was an answer in vaccum of what you wrote earlier in this thread. Context matter,its ok to forget what you wrote but its not okay to reply of the reply without context.

Below is about the answer of what you wrote earlier in this thread,i’ll address your answer nonetheless.

The core being the essence of the game, the concept of the genre, the idea of a the gameplay loop meaning in an action game the core is litteraly designing movesets with specific pace of windup+active hitscan+recovery with a mean of controlling the opponent ( which is universally a stagger) and if you scale the speed you break the game(the action game not your tab-target game).

Basis being the answer of the nonsense you wrote earlier in this thread though. I’m not speaking about tab-target MMORPG here.

I didnt wrote New world was a survival rofl. The game you listed are session base game.
Do you even know the difference betweeen persistent world and a session based world?!

This is only your POV, MMORPG dont have a specific combat type but because of the tech people are saying MMORPG are all tab-target game?!
Black Desert Online prove you wrong btw.

in Conclusion learn to read and get the context of the text before replying to someone…

you could have a fighting game rpg mmo. there is really nothing stopping it other than its difficult, and you’d need designers with different skill sets to it well, its far from an impossibility though.

Good. this means you have no idea what I’m referring to in this thread.

Tab-target is not my focus, it is merely what I refer to when I say that stats like HP, ATK and DEF are outdated concepts in action MMORPGs where players join in for PvP. In PvE this is still fine. In fact, it can remain indefinitely for PvE and it will never be a problem. It is only in PvP in which this problem lies and why if they truly want to accommodate PvP they have to remove it.

No argument so far has been provided to support this other than feelings.

Feelings don’t bring in players, feelings don’t bring in financial profits. Your feelings are meaningless.

No sane game company is going to move to benefit the feelings of what is a population minority at best or the ravings of 2-3 persons on a busy street corner at worst.

None.

And this is black deset online proving me wrong?:
[General Discussion] Empty servers | Black Desert (playblackdesert.com)
It is the same, but so much better — MMORPG.com Forums

Just quick snippets but even here there are players complaining about gear PvP and on the forums and other various communities are players either suggesting to ignore PvP or the same “Wait to level up”

No one is going to do that these days when they can just join an FPS and get into it immediately.

Yeah there are mmos which can fit the genre of fighting game perfectly like dungeon fighter online and soul worker but I won’t call them full RPGs, that’s just my opinion, whether right or wrong is not important to me on that front.

The people that want 24/7 open world PvP are the same people that will sit in low level areas and constantly grief them. It causes people to quit and it never works out.

yes, the only way you can have a pvp system with big differences in power for time investment be successful over all,

is

  1. the game is fun even with less power
  2. make it so players rarely unwillingly face matches they have 90% chance to lose.

the people who say rpgs are all about leveling for power, are not imo correct, but even if they were, a pvprpg would need a different rule system to succeed.

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