[Re-Imagining the Game Systems] The Holy Flexible Trinity and Immersive Territory PvP idea

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Hello again, Aeternum citizens! After the ruckus caused by the Patch 1.0.5, and after reading the post here: A Letter To AGS & The Healers' Community, I’ll try to drive the game’s community to a warring state by asking and re-instating the fundamentals: should we be begging for a new holy trinity or should we be trying to balance all, according to certain parameters in New World specifically?

I’m raising this question, because I don’t see it (yet) in the forums and it kinda troubles me. Let’s put things down the table and reinstate the way we want to play the game.

#1 The Holy Flexible Trinity

It’s been quite the fuss on whether we need tanks and healers in a group and what is their role in both PvE and PvP. Let’s see what these roles stand for:

  • Healer: This role relies on its ability to mend the wounds of the team and keep it alive to achieve the common goal (PvE). In PvP, the healer alone tries to sustain the damage, so it kinda revolves around tanking (in a sense).

  • Tank: This role relies on its ability to stand in the frontline and sustain the damage from the enemy, while the rest of the group deals damage or keeps the team alive and strong (PvE). In PvP, they do the same thing, but for the sake of their own survival.

  • DPS: In both PvE and PvP, they do damage in any way possible, either raw damage or over time damage.

The whole explanation of the obvious is to reinstate the already known and think to ourselves: do we want this strict distinction or we want some air and space to breathe? Obviously, this is too strict for anyone to follow. For this reason, we have a more flexible version of WoW’s Holy Trinity System. In this game specifically we have to choose our own path through a selection of weapons with different aspects and traits. Even with that flexibility, we choose to narrow it behind Holy Trinity terms that don’t really do the work they did back in the days of the elden MMOs.

So, to the developers that I want to think that they read and hear our voices, I have this plain suggestion to reinvent their system: open up the spectrum of the roles the players have to take and make all PvP squad-based. Create 5v5 situations (for smaller PvP groups) and expand it to your war system. The roles (if we want to put them in strict terms and words) should be like this, trying to fit all the playstyles in:

  • Healer Roles: The backbone of the group, rely on their ability to keep the group members buffed and healed, to achieve the team’s goal. Their arsenal should provide healing and buff supportive skillsets for their cause.

  • Rogue/Assassin Roles: The flankers of the group, either assassins or rogues, rely on their stealth to sabotage the enemy and help the team bring them down. Their arsenal should provide invisibility and trickery skills, along with some damage skills for their cause.

  • Damage Dealer Roles: The essence of war itself, charge into battle to break the enemy and conquer. Their arsenal should provide damage and damage scaling skillsets to achieve their goals.

  • Controller Roles: The tacticians of the team, lay waste with traps and gimmicks to lure the enemy and debuff them to the teams advantage. Their arsenal should provide them with crowd controlling and debuff skillsets for their cause.

  • Tank Roles: The front men of the battlefield, stand like walls in front of their team and taunt the enemy as a distraction. Their role is to stand ground and get the enemy’s attention to them, taunting and sustaining their damage. Their arsenal should provide them with ward and protection skillsets, as well as some health sustaining skills to keep up, when the healer cannot aid them.

As you can see, we have a Holy Quintessence with more options and more unique playstyles to follow. But, to make it game specific, we have to redesign the weapons on that manner. That means loads of effort from the whole team of Amazon Games. As I’ve mentioned in my previous post [Additions to Game] Mastery in Armor Types and Respecing Point System, there should be an armor mastery too, for more flexibility.

#2 Weapons and Armor Mastery Re-Imagining

This game makes clear that each weapon has its own style and it depends on the player how it will behave in combat. There are two treelines that serve a specific purpose and that’s why we have 20 points instead of let’s say 30 or 40: we must choose wisely and according to our favorite playstyle. If we apply this logic to my idea of Armor Mastery too, we’ll be able to get a better feel of our set of choices and a more interactive approach to our game life. We aren’t in the high grounds to whine about the healers surviving the apocalypse or the dps not killing the healer, because it’s skill that is required to get through trial and error to learn to play well. Even with the best gear or the best ability setup, if you don’t practice your playstyle and test your skills, you will always whine the way through the forums (you refers to all of us, without exception).
So, the solution here lies in both our playing and the devs’ efforts to make the game a battleground of unique skill sets clashing together for the glory (too dramatic, I know).

Bonus Thought / Suggestion: Teamed PvP

Based on the previous thought on squad based PvP, I know that most of the people here, along with the development team, might laugh or look at it with a menacing pokerface, but I’ll say it: death to 1v1 PvP, hail the teamed PvP! Wars are very fun and, in this game, it has seen some success. The New World’s War System is pretty cool and better set up than other similar attempts in other games. But if we want to face the truth, one of the reasons we have that DPS vs Healers beef here is the 1v1 Duel. What’s the reward for that anyway? In most cases, you just want to show off your gear and PK others for fun. We have to show off through teamwork, and the Wars are maybe the only way to do it. But it only happens once in a while. Why not having a PvP feature, like a live version of Capture the Flag, where a band of 3-5 people of the same Faction conquer a small outpost in the territory.

Let’s explain this feature with an example:
Along with the fort in Everfall, there are 10 outposts (something like an army camp or a watchtower with supplies behind the walls). For each outpost, the minimum requirement is 5 people and level 50. The quest for capturing will be available at the Faction NPC in every city and can be given anytime. The outposts can have some NPC army men who will defend the place, who will belong to the ruling guild of the ruling faction.

To make it more rewarding, the players will earn some loot from chests inside the camp/outpost and they will be earning some Faction Tokens as well. Also, if you encounter other players defending the position, you can kill them for some extra faction tokens or gold (no player looting, that would be frustrating).

So far these are my thoughts, I’ll be adding more as time passes, thanks for reading all the way through and I hope the voices of all roles will be heard.

Ad Astra, Aogra Volve

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I’m calling for more diversity in roles in terms of what everyone wants to play.

As for the 1v1 thing, OK we have duels (so why player killing randomly while someone is gathering or such?) , for more mass PvP we have Wars, what’s the deal with having an option for smaller teams who want to pvp other squads freely on the open map and earning some more stuff while making the War system more active and Immersive? I’m speaking for a boost of the PvP element here.

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I do agree with most of the things that you said… Please keep with the good work

Hope AGS listen to it too

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While I don’t agree with all these points, I must admit I find this post to be well written and interesting, as I am also slightly dissatisfied with the rigid trinity role structure that is increasingly emerging. More importantly, I don’t think this game was made with that system in mind and I think it goes against the kind classless freedom it is known for.

I feel the trinity was a good system that created needed complexity and specialization in tab target combat systems, but seems almost outdated here. It is inconvenient to need a life staff and sword and shield user in every PVE group, and will get more taxing as more non-healer/tank weapons get added and those aforementioned weapons become rarer simply due to more competition. I don’t believe AGS has been designing weapons so far with the intent that there is balance between the viable tank/healer/dps roles and I hope to see more creative ways group content can be done sans dedicated healers / tanks.

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Thanks for your constructive reply! Truth be told, the Holy Trinity that’s emerging in this case is not actually that one we know from either WoW or FF XIV - a strict system with classes that define the DnD Era roles. It is trying to be a flexible version of it though, and it can be seen through the classless system with fluid action combat (on light and heavy attacks) and some tap targeting for some skills. But to me, on the long run, it’s going to meet its downfall, if it doesn’t redefine its system and mechanics behind that new combat system.

That’s why, as in the post mentioned, I proposed the addition of armor mastery, which gives to the flexibility of specialized playstyle for the user. By specifying not only the weaponry, but also the armory with some kind of passive skillset, we can reach to a better and variable ecosystem of unique playstyles, whose differences would rely not only in the numbers provided (let’s say difference in the healing factor per se), but also in the variety of stats increasing or decreasing. The Armor Mastery post will be re-edited again and again, because I believe it will serve well to their cause and the new mechanics they try to launch through New World.

Also, the players’ choice in weapons pretty much reminds me of the Lineage Era (correct me if I’m wrong), due to the fact that everyone just wants the best weapon just to PK any living thing with one hit and rise on the PvP ladder, without really caring about anything else. But Lineage is from an Era where competition for the leaderboard was on its peak and I think that this, as a game element, should be the primary core only to the E-Sports. In other games with a more co-operative nature, that should be implemented as a group PvP situation (we have the Wars and let’s hope for more PvP related quick events).

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Love this. I used to play the shit out of wow (heals) & 90% of the time loved its Pvp system. Not only the arena’s but the 10, 20, 40 mans. The few locations of open world Pvp. (mostly control related) like you stated above. I really liked how you could do it just for fun or ranked. Lots of PvP options…

As for the set roles part of me wants it but part of me doesn’t. If it will be one choice of just heals, just dps, or only tank. Because a lot of us aren’t just one thing… I like the option to freely do decent dps when applicable without having to swap specializations. Its a great addiction to this game. I have the choice to play two different classes at the same time. I really love it.
Although I do think if this becomes a thing. We should have an option to select roles when entering a group setting. Or certain open world areas, like when entering an event area. Weather it be dungeons or large groups, portals, elite areas ect. Having that role selection so we know whos who would be lovely.
But, have it be multi choice. Like heals, or heals/dps, tank/heals, rdps/dps, tank, or just dps. There are multiple kind of hidden roles in this system as we have rdps, mele, dps, tank, heals & this can mix and match in may ways.
This Role setting could be based off the type of weapons we have currently equipped upon entering the group or scenario. As like with many other games you cant change your weapon upon entering. So, what we have equipped would in theory be what we wanted to play as. Just my two cents…

:spoon:

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Thanks for your constructive feedback! I see your worries and (as I’ll be re-editing till sun goes dead) I agree with you to this point. I’ll try my best to make it clearer, so everyone will understand my opinion here.

I definitely don’t propose a strict healer/dps/tank team setup, because that kills the fun to me. That’s why I created the term “Holy Quintessence”, which is a slightly more variable version of the Holy Trinity System. Every player wants to play as freely as possible, switch between role functions and make his gameplay immersive and interactive enough to his likings. The classless based on weaponry choice system is a truly good start to this idea and I also suggest in my other post [Additions to Game] Mastery in Armor Types and Respecing Point System, a creation of the same system for armor types (which will also be re-edited a lot). This will benefit the player according to their choices of playing and it will give more sandbox like vibes.

It could also follow the FFXIV logic to the dungeon/raid party system, in terms of the roles that will make the squad. On this one I based my thoughts on a Holy Quintessence, but if I were Amazon Games, I’d go a little more experimental in terms of defining the roles again and again. In a raid you need a lot of coordination and team spirit to achieve the goal, so the need for more function-specific roles rises there. In New World seems to be a mix-up between the PvE and the PvP logic of a combat role, and this is where I say “Why not making it more squad-based?”. I think Wars aren’t enough (since this is the most PvP element among the other ones), so it needs to be more diverse. I’d like to see something like a better version of the WvW thing from Guild Wars 2, but without creating a separate instance for that. That’s a lot to analyze it through here though (another post to make -_-). This way, by making the PvP more diverse and team-based, you can take advantage of the more flexible Holy Quintessence system and even better if it becomes as flexible as the 100+ classes from Archeage (without the P2W element).

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Dude you can turn off pvp… And nobody can gank you during farming. Or you take risk and gain extra. Your just another whiner… “I want no pvp so nothing interupts my effieciency but at the same time i want rewards of beign pvp flaged”. Ppl like you destroyed a lot of games with greed and beign lazy. Cos they have to be constantly rewarded with everything possible. Game is literaly giving you and option if you are vulnurable for ganks during farming.

You know what’s the difference between me and you? While im doing grind im poping music and stay high allert looking around with my mouse all the time ready to counter gank. Feeling you get after wining against someone backstabbing you is priceless.

When you start to farm your going from tree to tree clicking e and scrolling twitter or something like that im 99% sure of that the other 1% is that your simply bad at pvp. Either way you can do it without risk by turning off pvp.

Now you say we should get rid of open world ganking so im guessing you are farming like i mentioned aboved but with pvp turned on cos you are greedy. Im constantly aware and im getting rewarded for risk, you want to get rewarded for nothing.

Now correct me if im wrong or go play AFK Arena cos i feel like this is more suitable game for you and the rest of that spoiled players these days demanding dopamina for free.

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I’ll be honest with you and try to explain it as short as I can: I never mentioned the shutdown of PvP feature, as all of us know that it is one of the most important elements to MMOs and gaming in general (from Lineage Era till now and forever).

I personally enjoy PvP and duels with strangers (for fun). What I recommend to this point is that is to redefine the PvP element in the game and make it rewarding for all players alike. Also, I like the element of surprise when I flag for pvp and someone gets me on surprise to a duel (even tho I am too much into my farming I must admit).

I’ll make it once again clear: Redesign PvP so everyone gets something. If you farm and kill someone, it’s totally okay to do so for the extra reward or something, no problem with that. If you just want to farm, just turn the flag off, as you said. But I want more variety to the group PvP, because Outpost Rush seems quite boring to many players here, and Wars are quite a drag due to a non fair rewarding value for work. I try to state the obvious: make PvP great, engaging and rewarding, and most of all, as much non-toxic as possible.

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to make my opinion clearer!

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Maybe this game should do away with this traditional healer tank dps roles. Unlike other traditional MMOs, you can equip two weapons. It might be better to just take the route GW2 took. Nobody plays as traditional tanks or healers in PVP anyway.

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I agree with you, but I think that happens when PvP gets closer to open-world PvP, with ganking other players for some rewards. Totally OK with me.
But the whole role system I’m introducing is for making squad/army-based (where all roles are needed to achieve the faction’s goal and conquer over all) combat experience a lot more engaging, diverse feeling of the game, and giving everyone the opportunity to work together and conquer for more rewards and loot. I’ll be writing my PvP ideas in a new post these days so I’ll gather up all the community’s ideas and present them to the development team to see what we all want. I will also try to implement the PvP elements to fit the system introduced to this post!

Thanks for taking the time to read this and express your thoughts on the subject!

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I wrote about putting caps on AoE damage/healing to discourage blobbing in group PvP. But it seemed like nobody was even interested. Good luck with your new topic.

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Could you link it here so I can see it? :open_mouth:

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Iv never been more confused i guess? You clearly dont know what you want, just leave it to ppl who have good ideas to improve the game cos after rethinking first part of your ideas i think game should go in oposite direction. Radicus got the point.

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OP said nothing about removing open world PvP, OP said nothing about removing 1v1.

OP said the following:

  • Balancing weapons around 1v1 is not the right way (He is entitled to his opinion, the reasoning will follow).
  • Reward diversity instead of having cookie cutter builds or meta builds.

OP’s reasons:

  • Bow/musket/rapier users complain about not being able to 1v1 certain weapons in duels or open world PvP, those players are very vocal on the forums and demand nerfs to tanks and healers.

The train of thought is very simple, why should a no CC weapon be able to kill someone just because its a pure DPS weapon? Why should the devs buff said weapons because they cant kill someone else.

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Why does every DPSer think the solution is to remove non-dps weapons. I would like to see you capping points in wars, or doing a Myrkgard elite run.

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May we have a link to your thread.

I believe they should add modifiers in this game (AO applies this quite well):

  • If you are attacked by multiple players, you receive a damage reducing modifier.
  • If you attack multiple players, you receive damage increasing modifier.
  • If you are healed by multiple players, you receive healing reduction modifier.
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Op healers allways were bad thing im mmo’s. The fact they cant kill them right now is a matter of bugs. Once they fix everything and reducing defenses will work better problem will solve itself.

He actually said a lot, how am i suppose to understand

World pvp os players killing randomly Wach other, this makes you feel vulnerable and creates tension. If you dont wanna activly play the game go single player where you can farm safly or go play moba for organized team vs team pvp. It’s MMO and it have its rules.

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OP was very clear, and I do not understand how you are confused. OP wants variety in roles, and not simple who can dish out more damage in the shortest amount of time. OP wants strategy in a game that somewhat revolves around strategy in wars.

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Im talking all the time about seconda part while you are still at first part of his post i guess.

More variety might be good but its also might be a chore for the game. Having to mamy roles required for dungeons might make nearly.impossible to get group with randoms.