Remove Frenzied II - Not Fun or Challenging

Please remove Frenzied II from the mutations. It’s not fun or challenging, and more of a nuissance. The way this DOT works with Ice and other mutations, especially in Ennead or any other dungeon where a dodge is life or death, Frenzied II is basically taking an essential mechanic away from the game. And with the recent buffs to HP and Damage output of mobs, and the amount of ranged mobs in Starstone (for an example), dodging is almost mandatory if you’re going to survive and move quickly to meet the time restriction.

If you won’t remove Frenzied II, it needs to be heavily or severely nerfed by adding a timer on when you can get Frenzied II again. Or, reduce the DoT timer to 3 seconds versus the 10 seconds it is at now, similar to Fiendish II.

This is not a fun or challenging mechanic. It feels like cheap or synthetic difficulty for such a good game. I’d expect this Frenzied II mechanic in another game, but not this one.

Thank you


Appreciate this feedback @Harryn would anyone else like to add feedback about Frenzied II?

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My pleasure @Talon . I submitted feedback in game about this mechanic a couple times, but I felt it necessary to post this feedback here in the forums to hopefully get some discussion about this.

The thing with Frenzied II is, it works fine in Lazarus and Genesis, where you can stand in Sacred Ground and out-heal the damage. There’s plenty of melee mobs that will just run towards you. The only time Frenzied II becomes an issue in Lazarus is the encounter after Cilla, where you split into three groups. Unless you have an IV bag of Regen and HP pots, the encounter just becomes a pain. I don’t mind difficulty like a different attack pattern the mobs will do, or more aggressive mobs. But when you couple in a very essential mechanic as dodging to avoid going down in a matter of seconds (let alone Frenzied II and the Paranoia debuff will eat your life away unless you’re sitting in a SG), it stops becoming fun and you’re just banging your head on the table and then causing toxicity in group. It’s not warranted. The Frenzied II mechanic just feels cheap and synthetic. At least with Fiendish II, it makes sense. It’s a 3 second DoT, and you learn to adjust accordingly, by not spamming abilities back-to-back while preserving the built-in mechanics of the game. If Frenzied II’s DoT was also 3 seconds, and the damage over time was similar to Fiendish II, okay. Now it can work. But when you’re dodging the Void Blast from paranoia, and getting the DoT to boot, let alone the other DoTs trying to stay alive, it just doesn’t work. I’ve even maxed out my resist to 50% for the mutation element type, and Frenzied II just ignores it. So something is VERY wrong.

And I’m willing to bet that not many people, if any, is going to disagree about removing or heavily nerfing Frenzied II. It. Just. Doesn’t. Work.

I just don’t run dodge mutations. Or if our healer is good enough we ignore it and just live in the pools.

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And that would be fine. But Ennead and Starstone, Tempest, Barnacles, this strategy will not work, let alone Dynasty. I know the devs are collecting metrics about this mechanic not being popular AT ALL, and people avoiding dungeons when there is Frenzied II. It does not work. The DoTs last way too long (TEN seconds), which in turn does way too much damage and it affects a very important mechanic that has been in the game since day 1.

If AGS wants to keep it in game, the mutation needs to be heavily nerfed or they need to revert the buff to mobs and bosses HP and Damage output.

@Talon @Harryn

CC: @Aenwyn

I have to agree to this post 100%. As a avid M10 runner through every mutation combination possible, though combating Frenzied II on some weeks, it’s very painstaking when you see “Frenzied II” on the mutation and quickly think “Do I wanna run that or no…” In most cases, players will say “No” and skip that specific dungeon and hopefully the other Mutation is better. I can’t say for every player, but, not everyone skips Frenzied II and “suck it up” to complete the expedition, but, players who’ve been playing NW since Beta’s, Launch and even when Mutations came about in NW, we KNOW how painstaking Frenzied II is especially paired with Paranoia and how Frenzied II suppresses the use of dodge witch is a core mechanic to “avoid” life or death situations but get punished for doing so.

Frenzied II is the type of using your dodge wisely to avoid further damage to you and your group members. The thing about Frenzied II is not many players understand how it works or what to watch for. A single player can have 3 to 5 debuffs from a mutation at a time and to understand which debuff to look for that has the Frenzied II “countdown” from 10 to 0 then drop a pool of Void damage on top of your group can be a result of a group wipe. However, from my experience, you can dodge, (countdown begins), dodge again, (refreshes countdown), dodge a 3rd time (10s countdown until you drop the Void pool). Also, If you dodge once (let the count down go) the player will not drop any void pools on the ground, same as if you dodge the second time, when the time runs out, you don’t drop two stacks of Void pool damage on the ground. Only the 3rd Frenzied II debuff has a “final countdown” that cannot be dispelled or cleansed, this is inevitable, you will drop three stacks of void damage on the ground.

Regardless if players can mitigate dropping the one or two stacks when the timer runs out, it’s mainly the third countdown stack players are unaware of, especially when engaged combating a group of mobs then pretty much four players drop the void pools on top of each other and you’ll see your HP drop drastically.

The problem is, not many players have that situational awareness to check the countdown timer, get away from the group, drop the pools and resume combating mobs or boss. Paired with Paranoia > Frenzied II this is very bothersome. Take some instances for example where Frenzied II and Paranoia are not ideal but they can be paired together for a week which majority of players avoid the mutation like the plague.

First Expedition that comes to mind would be Dynasty Shipyard during the Shipyard Keg encounter. I cannot tell you how detrimental it is to dodge during this encounter from the 5+ melee mobs including the x2 Musketeers. As small of a area you have to fight including getting mobs CC’d for them not to damage the Shipyard Keg, you’re constantly dodging and avoiding incoming damage while the goal is to down the mobs as effectively and rapidly as you can. With Frenzied II, this is NOT ideal. The only option here, bc of the small are to fight in is for players to drop their stacks on the ground, sure, you can run away a few feet come back into the fight, but, those mobs don’t all run towards the keg, you do need to grab the Musketeers along with the melee and “gravity well” them together for maximum damage to the whole group downing them.

Another expedition where Frenzied II is essentially ridiculous is Lazarus when you are at the glyph room area, fighting those mobs which usually the Healer spams the glyphs to spawn mobs and as always, players with “poor situational awareness”, drop their three stacks damaging the group, yet, sure, hopefully the Healer puts down Sacred Ground before then knowing Frenzied II happens all the time in this area where players drop their Frenzied II stacks, it happens ALL…THE…TIME. Another area Frenzied II is bothersome (we’ll call it) “The Cleansing Room” before fighting Cillia. This is another place where you need to stack around to kill mobs by the stairs away from the cleansing well. And most of the time, despite the countless times players in group inform players “run away from the group with three max Frenzied II stacks BEFORE the time runs out”, and guess how that goes most of the time where people don’t understand which debuff to look for when there can be anywhere from 2 to 5 debuffs on a player at any given time. There needs to be a better indication of the mutation debuff for players to recognize. Why not have them color coded to the mutation? I understand there will be a red on red debuff for Fire Mutation, but that still works. Ideally, for Overgrown and Eternal mutation, the debuffs like Frenzied II would be purple in color, green in color for Overgrown, easily recognizable on the status bar above the Mana/Health/Stamina bar. Maybe allow those “countdown” debuffs to have a pulsating visual to inform the player their Frenzied II debuff timer is about to expire. There’s so many numbers and same color debuffs on the status bar, it would confuse players on which debuff needs more attention than others. Sure, if you have a stack of Burning, the player is very aware of that debuff because they are taking damage as the DoT ticks, however, this is NOT the case for Frenzied II debuff where at max three stacks, the player has 10 seconds until the stacks drop a void pool that damages them and players within the void circle.

Overall, with @Harryn idea, shorten the duration or Frenzied II to 3 or 5 seconds and/or reduce the output of damage the stacks inflict on the player(s), especially when the entire five man group drops all three stacks of Frenzied II on top of each other. Does it happen? Yes, it very much so does happen. Players who are unaware to move away from the grp, drop the debuff, return to the grp to fight does not understand (especially melee) that you CAN wipe a entire group if you drop your stacks on top of each other. Pair that with a slow or root effect from the mutation, you’re barely going to survive since the DoT of three stacks x 5 players of that void damage regardless of having Void damage resistance and based on players CON, you can get wiped easily.

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Great post, @I-DoctorSatan-I. Thank you for taking the time to post that.

And let’s not forget about the Nature and Hellfire mutation where the Frenzied II mutation curse just does not work. Plus couple that with the Twins in the Ennead when trying to get the Pylons down, or Crassus when he shoots arrows randomly at people, the myriad of archers and ranged mobs in Ennead, the grenadiers in Barnacles and Blackpowder, or even Neried spinning around and people trying to avoid the ruined debuff from her. There’s way too many examples where Frenzied II does not work and just makes for a miserable experience to the mutation versus being fun and actually challenging. Or heck, let’s not forget about our friend Greundel in Starstone when he does the jumping phase, and you don’t hit him in the red eye to gas him from jumping anymore. Forget the archers and the many lost mobs you’re dodging and weaving from to avoid death, or Safety Inspector Richard, or heck, Nakashima (dodging is essential).

Speaking with players in game when Frenzied II is in a mutation, I’m usually met with “F*** that mutation, screw it, I’ll just do the other mutation” or some other huge complaints and disdain for the curse. I think at this point, the DoT timer and damage should be equal to Fiendish II or just removed altogether. If it is to be kept in place, then the damage needs to be heavily nerfed for the DoT or make it cleansable.

OP is right. This game mechanic is anti fun and does not reward skillful gaming at all. Instead it is counter intuitive and punishs players for playing the game correctly.

A potential change could be to do the opposite. Whenever you get hit by any damage, you get 1 DoT stack. That encourages dodging with a better timing instead of just trusting on your healer to heal you through the damage.


Actually… that’s not a bad idea at all! If AGS implements it correctly (they will probably just make the mutation effects count as a mob/boss hit that you cannot dodge and the DoTs accrue anyways). But therein lies the problem: will AGS implement it properly? Looking at the current track record… it’s a good wish list item.

That suggestion is a very good challenge and sounds more fun than getting a DoT when you’re trying to survive or use a mechanic in the game since Day 1 of New World.


Adding to how Vital it is to use the Core Mechanic for survival, as a Healer it is required to dodge as it helps with Healing Effectiveness
life staff

Even having a great Tank taunting all the mobs, a healer will still occasionally (or most of the time) get the agro of mobs ESPECIALLY the ranged ones, so in order to survive & keep the group alive a healer MUST dodge to avoid lets say the incoming arrows.
But lets take a look at a chain of events, Lets say the healer isnt aware of the 2 archers in Lazarus and gets hit reducing health drastically, now the healer must heal themselves but cant because potions are on cool down because they were used when dodging to increase healing effectiveness, so now the healer uses an ability on themselves because theyre about to die and now the dps are dead because they doged out of the way to keep themselves alive and couldnt get the heals they needed. Now the Tank is trying to get the agro of the archers away from the healer but cant due to the mobs the dps were supposed to be killing so as the healer is trying to revive at least 1 of the dps the archer knocks the healer and next to die is tank resulting in team wipe. THERE GOES YOUR GOLD in the m10.
(All these events which were described are based on a True Story)

It is understandable that mutations especially at m10 SHOULD BE challenging but this Frenzied challenge just isnt fun. Im sure if you look at the mutations every week, the amount of lobbys that are going for the Frenzied are maybe 1 or 2 vs the 12+ on the other “easier” mutation.

So to sum it all up PLEASE REMOVE FRENZIED!!!

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Any mechanic that takes away something from the player is bad game design.

@Talon I’ve also posted this thread in Reddit as well, and it looks like a lot of what was discussed here is resonating with a lot of players as well, namely since there is no opposition to this thread of suggestion of a removal of a curse that punishes you for using proper mechanics to stay alive/effective in an expedition.

@RaistlinMajere has a very good suggestion. If you plan on keeping Frenzied II, change the mechanic to reflect POOR playing by not dodging. It makes far more sense to learn encounters and reward people for playing better, which will, as a result, help improve PuG experiences as well, as more and more people play better. The muscle memory this curse will develop is very beneficial.

If we could, can we get a reason why this curse mechanic was even considered or added in the first place, without proper testing? I say without proper testing with examples such as Neried, Chompers, Crassus, Anpu & Heru, The Beetle Boss, Admiral Blackpowder, Cilla, the room after Cilla where you split into 3 groups, Starstone (in general), Tempest Heart (in general), Alluvium and the final boss in Genesis, Dynasty, there’s too many examples to list, honestly. Dodging is an essential mechanic we learn to use at the very beginning of the game, even. It becomes muscle memory by the time we get into end game.

Thank you

Testing out the new dungeon in PTR, Frenzied II is becoming even more of a synthetic and lazy difficulty setting that belongs in a Pay to Play Diablo Immortal game versus this game. With Ifrit and the Last boss, if you’re not on the ball with your dodges, especially staying in Light DPS, Frenzied II just becomes more toxic to bother with. It’s not fun.

Frenzied II either needs a severe rework (curses you with a DoT for not dodging), severely nerfed in its timer and damage over time, or removed from the game.

I really feel like mutations are in general not fun. They are just challenging. I am ok with that existing but it would be nice to see other mechanics in place like fun mechanics.

Examples of this might be

  • Bonus damage
  • Spurts of 70% haste for 3 seconds (very frequently)
  • High damage reduction
  • Immunity to element type

Who said the mutations only have to be hard, they can be hard and fun!

I also think that mutations should mix. for example half of the mutation modifiers should be fire and another half nature.

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No just No! We dont need to have a multi ward mutation plus multi modifier mutations with it. Having to switch gear to a different ward is annoying enough we dont need another. None of that sounds fun AT ALL.

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I think you may be speaking above their heads. @RaistlinMajere made a great suggestion that actually incentivizes players to use a mechanic we’re used to since the start of the game, and make better players overall.

What I find comical is when a dungeon has the Frenzied II curse, it’s avoided like the plague. It’s as if this is a cheap way to extend content or gate players to one dungeon while the blatant issue of no end game content is glaringly obvious. I’ve been seeing the curse show up more often now, and no groups running the dungeon, except for the lower levels of the dungeon to avoid the curse. It’s pretty funny.

Any reason why such a curse was put into NW @Talon ? I mean it’s becoming more and more obvious this curse wasn’t tested properly, especially considering the new dungeon’s setup and mechanics.

Devil’s Advocate.

Your happy for Heavy to be sub par for PVE, and want Str weps to be nerfed.
So Clump bashers get less agro or need more healing.

So good luck with your agro, and your welcome.

I also find frenzied II to be an annoyance.

I don’t struggle to do it, it’s just not fun.

Id argue that void stacks is the most fun, then nature poison.

Stuff that take skill to dodge is alot more fun than basically removing dodge.

Id argue that ice crystal ones are unfun also. Id much rather they spawn random ice showers than an ice crystal spawning and slowing or rooting a radial area.

I hope AGS can make changes to mutations to make them more challenging and keep the fun factor going forward.

I’m looking forward to lightning ones with lightning strikes similar to the barnacles boss. That would be fun.

A mechanic similar to the Ennead corrupted boss’s fire rain would also be appreciated IMO.