It is undeniable that the “classic tank” (S&S) is in a bad place in current metal, both in pvp and pve, being totally expendable.
However, the tank definitely doesn’t need a dps or defense boost (maybe just greater block stability in massive pvp scenarios). What tanks really need is UTILITY.
We need to be relevant to our team and not just a waste of the war slot that won’t do much more than raise the shield and give a defense aura (which is also expendable, since most builds today reach the fortify cap) .
With that in mind, a great option would be to make carnelian have a PVP effect!
The mechanics are already in the game (each skill applies the taunt in a certain area and for a certain time), it is enough that the “taunt debuff” applies some effect on the enemy.
Some debuff options would be to taunt players, apply slow or weakened. However, the possibilities are many, and it can even, while debuffing the enemy, buff the allies.
Obviously, all this needs to be balanced, but it is relatively simple to adjust, since it would be enough to change the percentage of the effect caused.
This topic really needs the design teams attention and a lot of discussion. Tanking and healing has been a big issue in mmo’s and we have seen some attempts at fixing this problem. guild wars 2 took a horrible route (we must admire their attempt) by removing the concept of the trinity, unfortunately it did not result in removing the trinity as hybrid tanks, tanked and hybrid healers, healed.
ESO has done a great job at diversifying the concept which i think to date is the best approach at it, but there are some key things that i have advocated here in new world regarding it, namely that tanking go’s away from sns type weapons and in the direction of weapons like rapier, spear, or greatsword. I believe with some slight changes rapier and spear can both be significantly better at tanking even though i tank with them in m10s and strongly believe they are the best tanking combo in the game currently. M11, another upp ranked pve company runs greatsword and use to rapier tank in the past.
The problem is really the psychology behind “i wanna do big numbers”, if tanks could somehow simulate that on the front end ui level, but not on the back-end level it would be great. IT requires careful balance in pve and some caps and calculations that convert damage numbers to % of hp, which the result is an equalized dps ratio, but it can be done. Setting up this way will allow 2 second 14k attacks, where dps normally do something like 7k 1 second attacks. the result is similar dps levels but simulates more power in tanking, there by making it more appealing.
I believe this would be the best approach, outside ofc of making new mage or range style weapons dedicated to tanking, especially at range.
I really don’t care about tanks in PVE and to be honest I think the idea of the best potential tank for PVE not using a shield is pretty bad. It doesn’t make sense, the only purpose of the weapon is to be the “maximum” of the defensive resource and even then it manages to be the best choice for pve. So I disagree with you, I think it’s cool and important to have variety (I myself tank m10 only with wh), but it’s useless and the reason a weapon exists. but I reiterate, I don’t care much about tanks in pve. My biggest concern is with the tank in pvp, this one has to be carefully balanced so it doesn’t get absurdly strong. so I suggested something related to utility and linked to a gem (cornelian) that does not increase the user’s damage.
I really don’t care about tanks in PVP, because never done. But I’ld surely use another sword (and shield) then the one at PVE and therefore another gem then carnelian.
And,… what is the/your problem with tanks in PVE? I haven’t found any clue in your post except a general statement of ‘lack of utility’. In my point of view, you can go high con and/or 3 defensive skills, or more str with leadership and jumping attack (or reverse stab). Not much choices, but at least 1-2 additional.
From my experience, GS is very nice for tanking. Like at SnS, there is one or other way, depending on selected skill.
Hatchet is nice for masses of trash or WH for CC and a bit support.
Even if I repeat myself, imho PVE vs PVP problems will exists as long they use the same mechanics/calculations.
From my tank experience, defender’s resolve is poor ability for tank. From what I see, the general problem of people playing tanks are their tunnel vision of “me click defender’s resolve”, “me block”. From what I understand, most of those “tanks” just want to block and take damage without doing anything else. They don’t care about doing damage, only migitating them, which is super bad approach and is correctly condemned by non-tank classes. From what I have learned, the best defense is offense. Because you can migitate a lot of damage, but if you won’t fight back, you’ll die sooner or later. Of course in PvP point of view, in PvE you have 3 people do to that. So my tip would be for you, tank players, to focus on both defense and offense, not just defense.
Also I see people really want the carnelian to be effective in PvP. I say no, just have 2 swords like I did, one for PvE and one for PvP. It’s really not the problem at all LOL
actually I don’t have a problem with the tank function, but with the s&s tank, it just doesn’t seem to be a very efficient option. as I mentioned above, as I tank all m10s, including bosses, only with wh in hand, as it gives me fortify, empower, cc and lifestealing at the same time.
the fact that the shield is expendable in pve, it doesn’t seem to make sense, you know? I think it would need more utility for the team for the weapon to be an optimal choice again. I understand that for an inexperienced tank, the shield is a safe option, but it’s not the most efficient. In fact, using wh, at various times I don’t depend on the healer’s healing, with a shield, I always do kkkkkk.
Agree!
so my suggestion was in that sense of encouraging more diversity in tank gameplay, adding more utility. I think it’s horrible these tanks that only know how to raise the shield kkkkk.
The problem is not the sword, I have 6 different swords (5 pve and 1 pvp) the question is that it would be a gem for a class that doesn’t need to focus on damage, you know? but in helping the team with some usefulness in pvp.
I still think that without going too far, reworking the party buffs and adding phalanx would be a game changer for tanks and everyone around them, if Devs could only read. I say that because there are no metrics for “Tanks” such as they have from GS overperforming or everything else.
There’s simply no data because there are no slotted tanks because they just don’t work, so, having no data, they have nothing to work around their balance and decisions, so you guys either keep pushing and get very vocal, or hope that some streamer picks this up and for sure AGS will deliver because apparently they work for those clowns and not for the general audience.
You are perfectly right, and tanks are pushed into this gameplay by the game.
With this, I disagree. As a tank you don’t deal damage, because light armor deals more dmg than you, as a tank you don’t have a lot of survivability, because combat in this game revolves around dodge and mobility, which light armor again does it better than you.
But it gets better, tanks also don’t have the best cc, because every other cc weapon does better in light armor. Since the game allows you to play light armor with every weapon, you have damage, cc, mobility and survivability in one build. Tanks have only block, which is sub par to dodge, but it works better on heavy armor loadout due to tower shields.
Maybe a way to bring a bit of balance into the game would mean to add the weapons weight to the armor loadout, but that may be harder to implement
I agree, but the situation here is that Tanks are not nearly as threatening when they’re engaging as they should be, due to the design of the entire mechanics thanks to the devs. This is less the fault of the player and more the fault on the dev team. I wouldn’t even complain about the Defenders Resolve if it actually did lessen damage after the math by 30% and actually be worthwhile, but as it is, it’s just a 30% Fortify, that most people who know what they’re doing already have at max. So it’s pointless to hold the shield up.
If CCs were actually strong, and we had a better diminishing returns system in place that punishes CC spam, Tanks would be pretty prevalent again. Stuns upgrading to legit stuns at a new benchmark (400 con) would put Tanks back on the totem pole as a serious threat to contend with.
Then add in the concept of taunts debuffing players and a system around it, and you really shoot tanks up the pole even further. Now they’re capable of turning the tide of the fight when coordinated with a leader.
With further tweaks to HP scaling to be more self reliant, I think tanking as a whole would be more enjoyable, then.
Carnelian having pvp effect would be good and is also the most straight forward way to help with sns tank in wars have more impact. However that would mean having to code in the Taunt status being able to be applied to Players, which as we know from AGS and their work capacity, is both a dream and a nightmare.
Reworking sns right side tree in the context of war tanking is also an easy solution
Changing the 300 con perk in the context of the high Con tank past 300 con is also an easy solution.
The problem is actually the company itself, AGS. Slow, inexperienced, uncaring.
They need to hire some industry veterans as consults like Chris Wilson or something.
Its getting tiresome seeing players pointing out such obvious things. And the fact that they depend on players to play the PTR and give feedback is a red flag too, just shows a lack of vision, confidence and competence.
I’m playing sns tank now so i hope the archetype gets some much needed love.
This has been proposed in the past. Something similar to how SWOTOR handles taunts in PVP. When you are taunted you deal a massively less amount of damage to any other target except the tank.
Tanks are already giving up the gem slot in weapons to be able to taunt, I agree it needs to have an effect in PVP.
Additionally, I still think that there needs to be a runeglass case that replicates the effect of a carnelian gem allowing a player to slot that around any of the other gems available allowing activated taunts while also getting damage conversions that other players already enjoy.
I don’t know if you’re being serious or just being sarcastic kkkkk.
I’ll take it as if I were serious. What the colleague suggested is not a carnelian with a runeglass, but a runeglass with an additional agro effect, you know?
In fact, using carnelian with runeglass is horrible, as you lose 50% threat, which is a lot. As it is not a damage gem, the least is that it does not lose its efficiency.
You miss the point. All of those require a Carnelian gem and wrap it so you gain the runeglass effects everyone else gets. I’m saying instead of this… you use say a Ruby… with a Runeglass Casing of Anger.
The runeglass casing of anger adds the SAME effect as carnelian does… but you can combine it with any other cut standard gem to be able to have both the taunts and a converstion for a tank. Meaning splitting half my slash damage to say fire for Genesis. While still getting the ability to taunt.
At the moment there is nothing like that.
I actually provided feedback to this end when it was on PTR but nothing came of it.
