S/S FEEDBACK on PTR

Hey Guys,

So I’ve been thinking on how to improve tanks and give them space in the current pvp meta for opr / wars ( i dont think they will ever be meta in 3v3s ).

WHIRLING BLADE: this ability is increadibly underused for good reasons, it’s bad, the new perk is just a fix on dmg which is not bad but none will ever want that perk over a dmg perk if u are going dps sword and use this ability for some wierd reason.

SUGGESTION: Animation prolonged to 3 spins in total, every spin does 50% weapon dmg and has grit. OPPORTUNITY: every instace of dmg that this abilities does also applies 5% rend if the target is above 50% hp ( same as perforate ).
PERK: Empowering Whirling Blade: Hitting a target with this ability will grant empower increasing your dmg by 20% (35% if on weapon) for 4 sec.

LEAPING STRIKE: Already a good ability and used for repositioning or combo with SHIELD BASH. Nothing to change here.

REVERSE STAB: Already a good ability, would be amazing if it had better tracking or a less clunky windup animation.

SUGGESTION: I would just change the perk in order to prioritize debuffs ( somnething like in this order: rooted, rend, disead, exhausted, weakened, slowed )

SHIELD RUSH: The ability itself is used for the aoe weaken and slow but it still lacks something to make it a great choice.

SUGGESTION: Enemies hitted are flattened and the wind up animation is few ms faster.
The area of impact should also be little larger, like 1m area.
Regarding the perk i have nothing to say, it’s good and u can stack it with multiple enemies.

SHIELD BASH: To me this ability always felt good only for space breathing and taking time for your stamina to go up or to combo with some weapons.

SUGGESTION: The new perk is bad, lthis ability can hit max 2/3 people and the cd is 25 secs! compare this to a DIMINISHING ORB; 15 sec cd skill ( with REFRESHING PRECISION / REFRESHING FRAILTY in wars you can get it to go off cd in one cast and explosion ) and a big aoe that can hit basically an half the flag in war. This new DIMINISHING SHIELD BASH has no sense, if you want to go that route i suggest just make it strip buffs and give it some decent following abilities INTIMIDATING BASH is just useless ( who wants dmg on a tank ability?? ) i would suggest to change it to a CD reduction per enemies hitted and also CONCUSSIVE BASH is wierd, it just enables unfun combos like the ones that are being nerfed on this patch. I would make it to a range increase of 1.5 meters.
Another take on the new perk would just make it like a REVITALIZING SHIELD BASH where you get 10 (20 if on weapon) stamina per enemies hitted.

DEFIANT STANCE: Oh god this abilities is the bread and butter for tanks and its so underwhelming, the only good thing is the animation. CD is 45 secs and the duration is 8 sec, providing you with 30% dmg reduction. FINAL COUNTDOWN increases it by 20% (50% dmg reduction) if you are above half hp and RESTORATION gives u 15% hp back when the ability ends ( 15% hp is 2.7k hp at 400 COS, just think of SPLASH OF LIGHT but only for yourself, that dont clense debuffs and has a 45 sec cd instead of 15 sec ).

SUGGESTION: DEFIANT STANCE This ability should 100% give 50% dmg reduction for at least 15 secs, and the dmg reduction SHOULD NEVER appear as a buff that can be removed or reduced in time!! ( I just wasted 1 second standing still and the cd of this ability is 45 seconds!! ) This FINAL COUNTDOWN rename it and call it UNSTOPPABLE now you have grit and are invincible from STUNS (Same thing as before, not a buff so inremuvable and uneffected by buff reduction).
RESTORATION: this should be a %hp healed per second, like 2% per sec.
Or even better; every second you remove a debuff from yourself ( 15 SECS = 15 DEBUFFS ).
A stronger one would be; Transfers an active debuff from self to target hitting you ( MAX 1 DEBUFF PER ENEMY ).

A LAST SUGGESTION:
DEFENSIVE FORMATION dmg reduced for allies should be counted in scoreboards for TANKS to receive some POINTS and rewards, I can’t stand that you can just left click allies and get 4k points on OPR using a life staff (Try yourself if u dont believe me) and a tank can hardly reach more then 4k by playing very well.

A great idea is to remove the dmg reduction and make it so that it removes a debuff on self and allies every 5 seconds spent in the active area, OR give Grit every 2 seconds spent in the active area to allies similar to STABILITY on GW2, you get a GRIT BUFF that last 2 seconds that will nullify the next incoming disable effect.
This way you can end up putting a clensed debuffs score on OPR/WARS or grit provided depending on the version you like more.

I hope that my suggestions are appreciated and shared with the developers and other tank players that wish to be useful in pvp mods while playing this style that should absolutely be considered and regarded as important in the game.

3 Likes

nice writeup, these are my alternative ideas:

whirling is bad because both its range and applied rend is too low, they should be increased (in case cooldown reduction is excessive then, it could be changed for some bleeding).

shield rush similarly has a too short range, it says 5m, it feels more like 3 in reality.

shield bash, the stun duration should be bound to the shield weight, so tower stuns 3s, kite 2s, round 1s. the last upgrade should be changed to cd reduction per enemy hit. Second upgrade should be merged into the skill and may instead be a range increase.

defiant stance problem is the animation is too long and it would be indeed great for the last upgrade to add CC resistence or just GRIT, rather than health. More similar to berserk, but with dmg mitigation instead of haste and debuff removal.

defensive formation… not sure, the current one is a bit underwhelming but I think it should continue reducing damage to allies, somehow.

2 Likes

My feedback is don’t nerf shield bash combo with leaping strike. The delay cripples the sword non tank builds.

Or shift the longer stun duration onto leaping strike instead of shield bash and give shield bash the short stun duration and slow. That way the skill shot (leaping strike) gets rewarded with the long stun and you can weapon swap off of that without getting the damage from shield bash.

Sword will become an unused weapon again for pvp if the changes go live.

1 Like

Great suggestions!
Would love to see tanks get some love from AGS.

Only warranted change imo for leaping strike was to reduce the stagger frames your target has upon getting hit. The lengthy stagger is unnecessary and was a holdover from alpha when gameplay was far slower. Leaping Strike is good on its own because you get to the target, can apply slow, and stagger them. It was and is exceedingly unnecessary to have leap → bash combo while not providing some breathing room for your opponent to do anything.

It is a good, cheeky skill, but it should not be what initiates a kill sequence without you the target being able to react. Having to read your opponent for half a second after your leap is not going to gut the weapon entirely.

1 Like

Yes, it will. Players will not be running the same build. I tested it in PTR and it’s now no longer viable competitively. Many testers I dueled that run schitzo stated the same. They’re looking for alternative build options already.

Sounds like the same FotM crowd that jumped on the one-shot ice spike wagon or the blunderbuss pump and dump. I get the sentiment, but if that is really that much of a game changer, I cannot say I am too surprised considering that people on these forums want counterplay in those circumstances without making Purify the only thing keeping you from getting pummeled singlehandedly.

If one action move from your opponent breaks the leaping strike + shield bash combo, then that means the combo itself and the guaranteed bash follow up on leap was the issue. The recovery animation on the user for leaping strike is long and the animation for shield bash ain’t all that fast either (and it does not automatically cancel your leaping strike recovery either). What does that mean? That means the stagger from the leaping strike was far too long and kept you the target stuck. They did the very same thing with Path of Destiny perma staggering your entire army when 10-20 hammer users all send waves of that shit your direction. Ultimately, it is about counterplay and not getting punished for getting hit by one leaping strike.

These changes were not listed on the patch notes which I do not like to begin with. That being said, I do not think leaping strike will be in too bad of a spot. Cowardly Punishment got reduced from 8 seconds to 3 seconds, yet the conditionality will not be requisite of it being a backstab. Certainly 8 seconds was superb, but taking into account how dodging is affected by slows means that your opponent ain’t going anywhere especially if you have the Critical Precision passive. I think you and other S&S assassin users will be fine.

Hammer works the same way by the way. Melee cc combo’s have to work that way to chain and keep players in place to get off their damage.

True, but what comes with Hammer CC is the telegraphs. The fastest hammer ability is Armor Breaker and it does not have CC, though it can be quickly performed after a successful Wrecking Ball to do a lot of damage and rend. Mighty Gavel is slow, but it is getting a juicy cdr buff with the July patch. PoD, WB, Shockwave, and even CO are meticulous and have a window for interrupt, blocking, or dodging.

Leaping Strike on the other hand is a movement ability with a stagger attached to it. I think the speed it goes is fine, I think the positional desync in conjunction with the tip of the sword needs to be corrected, the damage is great, and the punishing slow whether 3 or 8 seconds is fine. Issue is and always will be how to justify a gap closer being able to stagger your opponent long enough to get an additional free hit in (typically in the form of shield bash) that might spell death for the target. The cc on Shield Bash is fine as is, and will seemingly get better with the Diminishing Shield Bash perk, but realistically, having a one and done like LS → SB just isn’t it. Got to offer breathing room imo.

Should there be no assassin class in the game? It’s the only solution to Rapier’s Riposte atm until they introduce a silence.

1 Like

good rapier users can riposte right after LS hits. happens to me all the time.

I hope that AGS can do something to make Rapier not perform so well in terms of mitigating damage through lengthy i-frames. Unstoppable on successful proc, 0 incoming damage throughout the animation, and its quick activation while recovering from say a flatten or stagger are perhaps some of the bigger highlights of Riposte’s strength. Realistically, put a Dex limitation on the weapon and call it a day from there so that non-dex users can’t make use of it (much like many have suggested about non-int users making exceptional “plays” with IG).

As to assassin’s, that depends on what you mean by that. We have ranged assassins like muskets that are not favored by a sizable portion of the community because of 1) hitscan projectiles not allowing you to properly dodge or account for incoming bullets and 2) limitations on range that permit a musket user to shoot 10-50 meters greater than say the magic weapons (aside from fireball :wink:). I think it is far to say that getting plunked outside of an engageable range is not fun. “Counterplay” of getting behind cover is not always feasible and shields are the only means by which to protect from projectiles.

For melee, the “assassin” builds are more like frustrating lockdown builds. In this game, CC is tied to an exceptional amount of damage and can eventually spell death if the chain is not broken by an ally. Blunderbuss still has that burst potential I think despite the changes, yet Ice Spike was by and large the worst offender. Since it is an 8 meter range, Ice Spike was as close to a melee assassin than anything else in the melee weapon’s kit. Have the ultimate frost debuff on you and you could expect to get nuked for upwards of 8k damage even if you’re in Full Voidbent like my bruiser buddy. Most melee assassin builds are fairly methodical either via CC or a buff/debuff build up. Rapier Blood Tree one day might get there lol, but what I personally see coming around the bend is the WW/Maelstrom death spin performing very well. Takes time to build up because you need the stacks of Fortifying WW and Mauler’s Fury, but once you have that 2-3 second window, I think you are going to shred.

TLDR: Rapier needs to be looked at, but a trump card to Rapier shouldn’t entail a terrible lockdown CC sequence. Counterplay outside of sitches involving a Rapier is important. Assasin builds are not going to please the masses especially when you cannot control your character nor react properly to the incoming damage.

1 Like

Hi Fiora_Sojing, great tank feedback, I love the detail you’ve included. I will get this sent up to the Dev team for you so they can have a look as well. Take care!

1 Like

I agree with your comments here for the most part, but assassin builds are a part of mmo’s and pvp games. Dying never feels good. If you ask most players what they want (especially ranged users) it’s to never feel any pressure from pvp and sit back and auto-cast without reprecussion or threat. Any time they get someone attacking them the world is on fire for many. If someone is able to kill them they freak out as their preferred state is pve ranged casting without any mobs/players focused on them.

When a scitzo jumps on me as a melee, it’s one of many already attacking me. I’m used to it. Even when I wear light armor myself in wars, it isn’t a freak out moment. If I die, I die. I’m used to taking aggro from players in pvp and taking measures to escape or deal with it. Most of the player base needs to get used to looking at their gear and making adjustments (gems, CON, Resilient, armor type, secondary weapon, etc.) We all have to make adjustments. IMO the one-shot build has many counters and doesn’t require nerfs. It requires teamwork, coordination, awareness, face and block/dodge.

Everyone is so focused on stat padding they don’t want to do any of those things though, and it’s easier just to ask for it to be nerfed so they can go back to not worrying about any players at their 6 and auto-cast freely without any pressure or threat on the melee ball for maximum stat padding.

1 Like

Honestly, good. Skitzo can get nerfed into oblivion for I all I care. Can’t stand you guys. So sick of this play style in war and opr.

I really do like single target focused builds like S&S/Hatchet because they generate a lot of kill pressure on individual targets. Spear/Warhammer seemed to be a big deal before the Grav Well root became a thing. It is a different approach than simply joining in the AoE/AoE CC fiesta that we know and love about NW. Assassin builds of course put you at a disadvantage when faced against a group since you probably are using light armor and likely cannot self-peel with AoE CC of your own. Personally, I am just not a fan of getting locked down permanently without being able to get a word of my own in some way or another. You said it yourself, S&S/Hatchet. Average combo goes like backstab Leaping Strike → Shield Bash → Backstab Feral Rush for root? Sure, I guess you have an opportunity to do something after the Feral Rush staggers stirs you from your stun slumber, yet I think moving that window of interaction between the leaping strike and the shield bash would make a one-sided battle with an otherwise predictable end more engaging.

And to go back to what you and other people find to be understandably aggravating about Rapier, I remembered just how ludicrous and obnoxious Hatchet was during the Preview Event, and Rapier pretty much has taken Hatchet’s spot as the “oh shit” weapon. 10 Second undying was what made Hatchet a must have between your three weapons much like how Life Staff’s Speed of Light was that mandatory escape button. You could argue Rapier has both of those in a sense, but the truth is that Rapier is being used in a large degree by Focus, Dex, and Int users because of its defensive kit much like how Defy Death was that go to. I hope they do something to bring Rapier in line with other weapons since its defensive capabilities leave you in a damned if you do, damned if you don’t situation particularly in the context of Riposte.

If the slow stayed at 50% it wouldnt be bad at all. But they reduced that to 30% which really hurts it big time. Plus the reduction in slow duration also affects the weapon perk so now you only get 3 seconds of empower which is almost useless. And the empower is only active on the sword now instead of both the sword and your secondary.
With all this SnS will be really bad against most if not all matchups.

2 Likes

Hatchet wasn’t op during the preview. There were simply a lot of players unfamiliar with the combat including myself who didn’t understand how to dodge away or back away from Hatchet and tried to beat it face tanking (it’s prowess).

All you had to do was back away from Hatchet and it couldn’t do anything.

Middle ground might not be bad for 5 seconds at 30%. Recovery on the leap is still like half a second and you might not even hit someone until one or two seconds later depending on how squirrely the target is. Crippling Feral Rush gives the same duration slow while only 10% being less effective… I do not think that is a good look.

What you mean empower only works on sword now? Didn’t see that change yet

In a hit-stagger environment, faster attacks matter a lot. There definitely were things people did not know coming into that experience, but having a 10 second invulnerability was what kept hatchet as that oppressive, do all weapon. Pair it with the lifestaff’s get-out-of-hell skill, and you have little differentiation and identity in the game. They managed to make it at bit underwhelming but not excessive on launch last year, though they left the throwing tree in the gutter pretty much until now.