Staggers removed on PTR

They removed stagger because they wanted a clear differentiation between CC abilities and DPS abilities. Flourish is considered a DPS ability so stagger was removed. I necessarily did not agree but I’d like to test it first.


I’m not a tank player, but a tank should be a stagger too. Because it’s the tank. must do something


Without Tondo, FF deals damage equal to two normal attacks and does it slower than if you just smacked the target two times manually. And since Bleed tree sucks, no one uses FF for damage. Stagger was about the only point of the skill.


How does bleed build sucks?

Looks fine for me.

Yeah I definitely understand where you are coming from. I play IG/VG and on the PTR it feels terrible to play. Granted I do not have the exact perks that I normally use but it feels entirely different. My entire build is going to have to change.

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The goal of the stagger changes was two-fold:

  1. To identify a move as either a CC move or a damage move. And if it’s a CC move to make sure damage is low/moderate, and if it’s a damage move to remove the the CC.

  2. More clearly differentiate which weapons had CC/staggers to differentiate weapons better.

In reviewing our decisions, I do think the removal of the stagger on all FnF was overly aggressive because it hurt the ability as a whole. We are reviewing this and will likely add the stagger back to first part (with a slight reduction in damage to that part) before S1 goes live.


Bravo. Good call Devs.

And impressed you listened to feedback and incorporated it.

This is what we want to see!


360 degree stagger is kinda op. The move probably was just to nerf that.

I personally think that fnf should combine all the bleeds damage. it would make it super unique.

could we then expect some damage shift from Flourish to Finish maybe?

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lol, if you gonna add stager back and reduce dmg, than stagger shoud be decent, not like now, when you just cant hit with finish afterwards…
It is dealing now only 90% of dmg, blood line deal almost zero dmg (60% less dmg than Grace). So, please, make it work atleast!!!
Now it is just a joke, on PTR this is a joke about dead horse…

here is bugs on live:

Delayed dmg frames, broken stagger, broken frames for Ultimate…

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Bro, it was silent nerfed since brimstone patch and this is most bugged line in game.
Each skill is bugged:
Tondo - bugged
FnF - bugged, triple bugged
Flurry - partyl bugged and trash


Flourish do not have 360 deg stagger. Clear out is 360 deg, Reposite was 360 before. But Flourish is wide, yes, but low dmg and bugged\broken 180 deg only

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Good decision. Maybe you should look into Ice Spike as well. It is already a really hard ability to execute and if it even loses the stagger, that’s the cherry on top that will never make me touch this skill again. Pure damage just doesn’t cut it for such a hard ability where you also need to be very close to your enemy.


What about ice spike? It’s already a skilled ability and just gets a flat nerf, Also the great sword gets to keep all of its staggers?

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Blood is clunky and not fun

You have to put points deep into Intellect for the 30% bleed duration in which the intellect line offers only 1 perk (backstab damage) actually benefits rapier. Intellect is also a secondary attribute so base damage is reduced for basic hits / other abilities.

Tondo is such a slow, telegraphed ability that is easily dodged and blocked. It roots you in place meaning chasing enemies is near impossible as the blood tree has no on demand control / slow effects.

You have to Tondo 3x for maximum effect, which on moving targets is so difficult to achieve.

Bleeds can be cleansed, so that 20 seconds you spent trying to line up big ding dong damage is nullified with one potion.

You then have to Tondo before applying F+F to get maximum damage stacks as it only counts the remaining ticks and not it’s full damage duration.

F+F is the only ability in the game that requires a separate ability to perform it’s function. This means you are forced to use 2 ability slots for one action.

And then flurry is a self root, channelled cast that can be dodged, stunned and staggered.


Solo: it sucks. You get maybe 2 tondos off before the target dies. Killing target with F+F leaves it with long cooldown so you can’t use it to grind. The tree has no control, so using it to do big damage to elite mobs often means you will take hits so it’s not sustainable.

Groups: trash mobs die to quick so same issue as solo with tondo. On bosses you get the 3 Tondos for big burst, but then you have to ramp up Tondos again which is another 20 seconds. It’s terrible sustained damage


Everyone is jumping, flying, spinning, rolling, dodging, eating. Stars have to align and your target has to be brain dead to pull it off

I think those clips are cherry picked, and there’s a reason nobody uses Blood.


I think you should give this a look in accordance to justifying staggers as a whole.

I agree with this somewhat. No range weapon should have stagger and it was a dumb choice to have it in the game to begin with. Removing from melee though “rapier” is dumb. Bow and musket should lose all stagger though and I main range.

As someone from SEA, played in AP server, i can say your gameplay video looks completely normal to me. Hit not registered is one of the main features as SEA NW player.

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No staggers on rang ok? But mele having stagger on multiple skills ok? No man. Staggers are mechanic that is available for most builds or not at all. Mele already have stupid leap, stupid homind and stupid mele slow.

Yea but thats what cleans is for in game. If it would not have any good user cases like this, why would anyone bother using this mechanic? And there is not many sources for cleans in fact. Like tomb? 30sec cd so you have your window of opportunity there. Purify? Dunno if it can prevent you from being killed by bleed armor? Does it remove all bleed stacks before my hp goes from than 50% to 0?