Stat Scaling - CON vs DAMAGE

I’ve been thinking quite a bit about the difference in effectiveness of your primary (and secondary) damage stats versus the effectiveness of CON stacking… TL;DR at the bottom.

To start, there are pretty significant diminishing returns on your damage stats… to the point where, even with a 0.65 scaling on your secondary stat, it is more effective to put points into your secondary after the first 150 points in your primary, up until you hit 100 points in your secondary. That’s pretty wild. Now, looking at CON - I can understand why they made it a “flat” scaling. It just makes more sense, given the pve vs pvp aspect of the game. You need enough health to do the job and survive some big hits, but not so much that you’ll never need to be healed, and that was more easily (and better balanced when considering low levels vs higher levels - more later on this) done with a “flat” system. What does this mean, though?

Well, your CON stacking is actually more effective at earlier levels than it is at later levels, if you want to look at the percentages of health gained per point, and damage is fairly consistent (when compared to pve encounters - pvp is a different story for multiple reasons) over the levels. This is not taking into account anything over the 300 threshold, where damage scaling is negligible (imo, it becomes negligible compared to CON stacking at 250 - comparison later). If I’m a DEX build using a Bow, my damage will only slightly increase at level 60 with each point of DEX that I am able to squeeze out (mmm, foooooood). Whereas CON doesn’t see this problem… because there are higher multipliers for damage numbers with attacks/abilities than there are health, not to mention your base health is a pretty hefty chunk. That’s why you see a more linear increase in health per point than you do this weird exponentially decreasing increase per point in your damage stats.

So, let’s compare the effectiveness of the stat point thresholds (that go into combat only, because we all know that 25% full chop of a tree and 25% chance to mine an entire ore vein is just dummy good). At 300 INT, for instance, we see a 30% damage increase that is only effective when your opponent is at full life. Okay, cool. That’s a nice buff… but here’s where it gets funky. Compare that to, at 250 CON, getting an 80% damage reduction when at full life… wait, what? You’re telling me that, at 50 points LESS investment, without a diminishing return on the stat, the threshold bonus is literally more than twice as good as the INT bonus at 300 points? Yeah, that’s exactly right. And this is just as terrible as you think it is… there’s almost no balance put into these thresholds, and the damage stat effectiveness is pretty minimalized by CON stacking, not to mention when combined with LS. Granted, damage stacking is still better overall IF we compare the number of hits to kill in an ideal situation where our opponents don’t move and we just count the number of light attacks to kill, but these, imo, need to be rethought. Especially when you consider how strong self-healing is (hard LS nerf for pvp is needed, keep it probably 80% current effectiveness for pve). DEX at 300 is a situational guaranteed crit, which while it does overall give more effectiveness than the 300 INT bonus, is still a situational thing - if you aren’t dodging constantly, you aren’t getting any effect. This makes you expend stamina even if you aren’t in need of doing so to avoid damage, to gain it’s benefit - which can be a very detrimental thing. STR is interesting, though - grit on all light and heavy attacks. Very interesting choice here… no increase in damage, but a way to more reliably deal damage with only your basic attacks, with no downside (as long as you don’t consider becoming a lmb spamming zombie an issue). I feel like this is more useful in pve than it is for pvp, but the balance still needs to somewhat be there… I just don’t get what the thought process behind that bonus is. It’s damn near useless. And then, there’s the 300 FOC bonus. The most ridiculous bonus, I think, in the game, especially considering the state of self-healing. Expend all of your mana to (effectively) get all of your mana back… thinking about this, and going 300 FOC/200 INT with FS/LS, you have one of the most busted combinations in the game when stacked with heavy armor, and to be perfectly honest, I’m not sure why more people aren’t doing this. You have the most effective increase possible out of your INT, you get 15% more elemental damage, 10 mana per dodge, if you expend all of your mana you get a massive boost to mana regeneration, you have massive armor, the ability to lay down an aoe heal over time to sit in while your mana regenerates and you can block while doing so… like, this seems too good to be true. Socket a FOC gem into your FS and you’re golden. Interesting choice there as well, but I suppose listening to the playerbase on balance issues has never been a strong point in most MMOs. Usually they hit the wrong things with nerfs or give unnecessary buffs to places that don’t need it, when all along the answers were being pleaded to them by the community.

TL;DR: Overall, we see that damage effectiveness per damage stat point is worse than CON stacking, although going full damage, in a perfect world, where nobody heals or pots is still “better”. Diminishing returns need to be reduced a little bit. Stat threshold bonuses don’t make sense and need to be rethought/rebuilt. LS needs a pvp nerf (specifically self-healing). Why aren’t more people going LS/FS 300FOC/200INT heavy armor with FOC gem in FS?

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This is a pretty decent write-up. I’m gonna discuss a couple points to further shed some light or support what is being discussed.

Firstly, well done on basically dissecting the meta without experiencing it yet. You are very close to declaring what is currently the most effective fighting force right now, but before we get to that I’ll attempt to answer the question you posed about why no one is going 300 Foc/200 INT FS/LS.

The biggest, main reason here is because 500 points right now is very unobtainable. Assume you were near max gs for every piece right now. That means 10 pieces of gear, this gear aside from unique instances only gives 25 points. That means 250 points are obtainable from gear. You also get 190 points from hitting max level. This gives you a stat spread of 440. Add in 10 extra from the flat 5 you get from focus and int and you are looking at a total of 450. Now add in a food buff, that gives you a whopping 490 points. I’m sure you see the issue here.

It is currently unfeasible to go 300/200. However, you basically hit the meta by accident.

Right now the most effective fighting force are paladins and life zerkers. Heavy armor full focus sword shield life staff users, and Heavy armor full focus g-axe lifestaff users. Extra points dumped into con. These builds are literally unkillable in a 1v1 when comparing equal gear, and even very hard to put down in a 1vx. There is no comparison in terms of build effectiveness. I dare anyone to come up with one.

This has been the meta in fact since the closed beta, with no signs of seeing anything different.

The reason why you don’t see firestaff/lifestaff in this variant even with less than 200 int is because firestaff scaling is far stronger in the second half of a firestaff build. Going half-ass with a firestaff leaves them very underwhelming. Remember, firestaff is all about very heavy ability burst and then sustained dps with autos. Without properly spec’ing for it there’s simply better weapons, like the greataxe, for this setup. But I think the focus in either assumed setup is the lifestaff. While I think that the healing output from lifestaff isn’t necessarily the singular issue, combined with the insane survivability from Heavy armor and suddenly it is a match made in heaven.

Light Armor Life staff users feel very balanced ironically. They do insane healing, but pretty much anyone can blast right through them. The True strength of lifestaff comes into play with heavy armor.

I would like to see some heal reduction for going heavy armor, or more heal negation across the board. Diminishing returns on damage stats obviously do feel too weak right now, but I think the real issue is focus builds with life staff/heavy armor.

Also, as far as I understand we have not yet seen the real strength of this setup come to fruition.

Void Armor - 600 gs legendary crafted heavy armor that also reduces all critical damage done to them. Put this on a lifestaff user and watch them literally afk on points. It only gets worse at higher gs thresholds, not better.

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You should post more often and share the knowledge.

It’s such a shame quality threads like this often go unnoticed.

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I’d like to, but spitting the truth to a bunch of non-believers and content creators typically gets me a lot of hate.

I’ll keep that in mind though. :wink: thanks for the love. Happy hunting!

  • Flourishing, 60th Ranger (Bow/Rapier) of Amano Iwato
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This is a pretty good analysis. I feel pretty outclassed as a dexterity weapon user in medium armor even when I dodge many hits and sink many of mine in.

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DEX builds as a whole are very underwhelming for a few reasons right now… mainly because they seem to be more suited for hitting the backside of a pve encounter while tank holds aggro, or for a Bow user to have the time and space needed to set up a headshot on a cc’d target. Neither of these situations, and almost none of the DEX bonuses, are on par for pvp encounters.

Comparing ranged dps to ranged dps, the Bow isn’t anywhere near as lethal as a FS or IG in all situations. That’s not to say a Bow can’t 3 shot you, and very quickly at that, given the correct circumstances. They’re built for different occasions, it seems. Overall, FS/IG will typically beat out a Bow in 1v1 due to maintained momentum and attack speed. During group fights, FS has capability to fend for itself in high damage, easy to hit attacks and abilities. FS projectiles are much bigger than arrows. IG can fend for itself in multiple ways, most notably their oh shit button, Entombed. Placing down a massive aoe slow that deals more than respectable dps, then placing a wall of ice that prevents movement skills comes out to a pretty self-explanatory reasoning why IG is used so much. Whereas the Bow… does almost none of the above. The only way a Bow is going to fend for itself is in the player’s ability to hit every single shot on the opponent as they close in. Once the Bow is being used in melee range… well, you might as well count it out. Arrows start flying to the top-right corner of the screen (bug, already submitted), and projectiles start their movement farther away from your character model than an opponent can possibly get, which results in a literal perfect storm where either I can’t deal damage because my projectiles start farther away than my opponent is with regards to my own character model (resulting in it being literally impossible for me to hit them with a Bow at close enough of a range), or the arrows bug out into the sky, doing literally nothing.

As far as melee goes… well, STR just has better options than DEX does. You don’t get much better than the GA in terms of ease of use. Rend, Fortify, lifesteal, huge movespeed, gap closer, Heavy Pull and Reap, and then there’s Gravity Well… which, if properly aimed and executed, will absolutely dictate a fight. S/S is, surprisingly, very strong when combined with the Warhammer. The cc chain these two weapons can provide is absurd, and if you get close to that breaking point of ~60%, if they land a shield bash on you… well, you’re about to be chain cc’d to death and there’s nothing you can do about it. Not talking about weapons, but looking at the threshold bonuses for stats… STR just wins. Grit on all attacks at 300, vs a situational guaranteed crit from 300 DEX that, potentially very detrimentally, requires the use (and proper maintenance) of Stamina. That means instead of saving your Stamina for potentially dodging attacks, you’re forced into using it aggressively to gain your 300 stat advantage… instead of just lmbing… nowhere near balanced.

There’s a lot that could be looked into, and, case in point, as a person who has thoroughly enjoyed his dodge rolls… I am currently highly considering moving into regular armor weight class just because damage mitigation is so overtuned in the game currently.

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Does this even work with equipment loads heavier than light?
It excplicitly states “dodge roll”.

I’m not sure. I’ll have to test this.

Nice post from you mate. I have couple of thoughts to add to it.

One of my questions is, would there be a point on stats that, for weapons that scale from 2 stats, stacking main stat becomes less beneficial (disregarding the effect of perk bonuses) than adding the extra into the second stat. In example; 300str+100con vs 200str+100dex+100con for a hatchet.

So also, similar to your original thought of mixing perks, there seems to be some other interesting things you can do currently, and possibly some busted things, but they’re mostly overshadowed by the current OP LS issue. We’ll get to see them used later on I suppose. Example; full dex musket, you get 5% crit chance on normal attacks, 5% thrust dmg, 10% headshot dmg. But if you are full int and put a int scaling gem on your musket, the damage now scales about the same as it would from it’s mainstat dex but int perks add it 10% crit hit dmg (headshot), 15% elemental dmg (probably translates about probably 5-7% increase to your damage) 30% dmg on full health hit. So it really seems like int is better for an alpha ranged build than dex build. Weird no? And what if you mix stats?

And you figure the strenght here comes from 10% elemental dmg increase from int and mana regen from foc. Both of them look so nice but actually they arent that big of a deal and rather situational I believe.
So lets see, looking at focus last perk giving you back mana, who needs it? If you’re maining LS and build for supplementing that, you are very very very unlikely to run out of mana, unless things are going on for so long and you’re spamming single heals a lot, in that case a big pot carries you far too well to cover your spam phase anyway. Ice G? You don’t run out of mana provided you’re hitting due to it’s passive, and unless you’re in deep trouble, fighting for really long time in zerg or couldnt kill your target you won’t really run out of mana, and even if you do you can entomb at no mana cost and exploit running mana pots on CD + free regen with it. Firestaff? Well yes that needs more mana but not that much, and you could just slip to your rapier for a little bit (or musket even) if you have to. Not that big of a deal to not have the mana perk. FG/IG is the most mana hungry animal there is, they could use this for most benefit (probably, I didn’t play this double magic build much, cant comment further), but for the most builds it’s not that big of a deal.

The 15% damage seems incredible on paper, but then again it’s actually not that big. Sure, if you’re zerging for a while or doing pve stuff it adds but on duels and pvp, how much and where does it matter? Consider the last blow you get on your opponent in 1v1. How much of it is overkill? Will the 15% increase adding a bit of dmg every hit before that, will this be enough to cover the overkill so you can ultimately get your TTK to one shot less? And more importantly, is it that important to give up your con buffer for that one shot less? Where that 15% is most important is when you stack them, when you have a, say, firestaff or musket (the weapons built for it) and you stack all the gems and passives and stuff you can for that full health %bonus crit headshot initial hit bonus etc. stuff. That 15% really adds a lot to that alpha dmg, otherwise it’s not a gamechanger I believe.
So tldr, generally, the stat perks aren’t really big unless you stack them into a build.

I’d really like to try and run some tests for my first question (mainstat/second stat benefit on diminish) and for my second question, being; how diminish actually works on damage and so at what point I should stop giving to main stat and dip to con due diminish (ie; 300int+100con vs 250int+150con, perks not considered). But I’d need some good few 10ks of coin to throw around, can’t afford that now lol.

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