[Suggestion] DPS Meter

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21

This was doable before they broke the dummies.

Now they all can take one heavy hit then go invincible until you stop hitting them. It’s been like that since brimstone launch, and they never said why.

TLDR: Toxic people bad, meters good. Screenshots not always toxic, screenshotting already required.

I’ve been on both ends of this argument. I’ve experienced the toxic behaviors that can be perpetuated by hyper elite guilds. I also definitely do a lot of theorycraft, and without logs and meters it’s very difficult to calculate gains and nail down perk combinations. I could spend hours with a meter trying different perks and combos just optimizing my builds and skills for dps race moments or finding what actually does the most on trash. But not everyone wants to do that.

I want meters, but i don’t like the elitism that comes with them. But if i have to take one over the other i would take the meters.

Thing is, people already require screenshots of your gear, GS, wards and all of that. If you cannot provide that, usually you will not get in to the higher end groups.

Meters would actually have the opposite effect in this regard, IE if i can provide that my build can sustain 15k DPS, and i am sufficiently warded, i might get to go even if i don’t meet the standard build requirements otherwise. In this particular case the meter would give me access to somewhere i ordinarily would not be able to go.

On the flipside of that coin, if captain buxley is 625 warded with BiS, and cannot sustain 9K dps, they might not want him in the run. Which is an instance where having the best items in the game does not represent a persons ability to perform.

Right now without meters you don’t know any of that, so you send screenshots of your gear and hope that everyone else can perform, and find out all kinds of things during the actual run. I’ve been in plenty of M10 with 625 people that reveal they’ve never done nesh, after getting deleted by the first arrow shot. (meter can’t fix that part)

there’s always going to be gatekeeping, right now you need the ward, gearscore and “specific set of weapons” most of the time or you are not going. Whereas, ability to perform based on numbers would positively effect high performers lacking BiS, and be detremental to people in BiS that are low performers.

There’s a lot more going on in that arguement, and a million scenarios. But i know that personally, toxic people i have just learned to not play with. So if we can’t have meters because people will be toxic, even though they are already being toxic i don’t know what else to really say.

The benefits are high, for logs and meters. The drawbacks are pretty low, and are able to be curtailed by keeping it private if you want to.

Screenshots are already a thing, arguably this would make more builds acceptable in various scenarios with all of the new data that would be collected and mapped out with perks, gems and skills. New data is better than no data.

I could rant for a long time on this, but that’s essentially it.

5 Likes
22

Meters are not “good” if they bring only abuse into the game.

The bottom line is that outside of individual laziness being corrected, you only bring about the RISK or PROMISED toxicity. Its not worth it.

1 Like
23

I agree @Sonickat !

24

Same here. I’ve witnessed the toxic behavior of toxic players directed at friends that I choose to play with because I like them as people but whom aren’t the most elite players. I also know that I can’t help another player improve their play if I can’t determine what they are doing wrong and sometimes that isn’t as simple as it sounds. Parsable logs are really the only way to definitively see what someone is doing and try and break it down and figure it out. Even video and streams aren’t always obvious. Logs make a lot of created content everyone loves to consume possible as it becomes an objective tool to critique builds and helps troubleshoot bugs.

4 Likes
26

Parsable logs are really the only way to definitively see what someone is doing and try and break it down and figure it out. Even video and streams aren’t always obvious.

The day they added Logs to ESO was the single best thing they ever did.

7 Likes
27

I agree, but only as long as it’s kept that way. I’m not at all in favor of DPS meters the way skada, recount, or details are used in WoW. I don’t think we need e-peen contests in chat (more than there already are) or people getting crapped on because they’re parsing slightly lower than someone else.

2 Likes
28

That’s a big Nope from me.

1 Like
29

Dps meter are generally bad for any game
Even if its an old example, is world of warcraft a clear proof of dps meters only make things worse.

Which is the reason why FFXiV not have one. In fact Square Enix have banned all addons, and it’s now against the ToS to use them

1 Like
30

+1 as a WoW transplant who spent time in ESO as well; it’s kinda jarring how little “true mmo features” this game has for min-maxers and such. The fact that it is just now starting to get a transmog system blew my mind

31

There’s a couple of PvE-Oriented M10 only guilds on my server that do exactly this already, so…?

32

I’ve personally improved a lot and learned from DPS meters in seeing when people use things and looking at logs/parses.

The hard truth is that WoW logs make it so no one can really hide. You mess up or do bad it’s pretty obvious where the dead weight is.

Not everyone is ok with being exposed or facing the hard truth.

Imo too many people confuse honesty with toxicity.

The other side of this argument is that DPS meters can show that off meta builds can be viable and do good / competitive DPS.

3 Likes
33

Which is the reason why FFXiV not have one. In fact Square Enix have banned all addons, and it’s now against the ToS to use them

FF14 has Logs. which is imo the bare minimum for a MMO that wants to take PvE content seriously

3 Likes
34

ESO on console before training dummys were a thing. required video submissions of a Boss kill solo. usually normal bloodspawn or Slimecraw. and would use that as DPS meters. the second content gets hard enough that people need to start being super selective, they will find a way regardless. may as well give people an accurate metric in the form of
https://www.fflogs.com/
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/
https://www.esologs.com/
so they can prove that offmeta specs are viable in high level content.

2 Likes
35

Yes. But logs are against the ToS now. All addon’s, all forms of parsing
I don’t know if square enix has taken any action against any players doing it

But again, it is against ToS now

36

People are toxic already even without DPS meter. Also, I don’t believe it’s toxic to get to know that DPS that is afking or doing 1/5 of the other 2 DPS and making us fail mutations.

DPS meter does not make people toxic, toxic people will be toxic anyways.

It just looks like people want to hide things while not doing what they are expected to, so then they can continue not doing it. I can’t see how toxicity could be the main issue of DPS meters…

3 Likes
37

logs are most definitely not against TOS. if they were they could easily disable the combat logging feature they implemented themselves.

And is FF any less Cliquey or exclusionary than wow / ESO. from my experience its much much worse. and taking randoms with literally no way of vetting their capacity is risky. so people don’t do it.

Shitting on someone bc their dps is bad was against the old TOS. and remained against the rules when the new TOS was implemented. that didnt change when they banned addons. but that has nothing to do with not blacklisting someone from future runs bc they suck. or not taking someone bc they might suck and you have no metric without looking at FFlogs. that always did and always will happen in Every mmo nothing can be done to change that.

You either give people some metric to prove themselves or you let the community rely on hokey pokey magic and cliques to decide who they do and dont invite. its as simple as that

1 Like
38

Honestly I was so against this idea trying to prove my point why.
That by now seeing these posts popup again and again that I’m actually in favor.

I was a 99+ logger in FF. And I would love to see the toxicity and shitstorm a dps meter would bring by now.
Pretty certain that 99% of the people who ASK for one and haven’t played with a dps meter prior in any game. Would literally quit 2 weeks in xD
If you loved logging in other games and STILL want one in NW, I respect that. But you guys know already that you’re above 99% of the other peoples dps anyway.
So we both know why you’d want one xD

You guys just have not the slightest idea how this would change runs, meta and the general attitude. If you think NW is already a bit toxic you cannot imagine how this would look after the introduction of dps meters.
God I’d bet running pugs would become absolutely impossible with people running 5con and dodging the moment some1 dies just once. Also noone would join to help a pug since it would ruin their own potential log.

NW will be this cringe community where even your avrg log will become of importance xD
The difference between someone who did log at 97+ lvl and someone who never even had a dps meter is so big people have no idea. It will look like some people playing picture perfect while 99/100 will look like toddlers. Once math hits it’s gonna take out any variation out of the game, movement etc. You’ll not find a single tank with more than 5con xD You’ll get kicked out of groups for rolling when you shouldn’t. You will get kicked when you don’t run the exact same route the other top 1% of GS users will run. People will likely throw away healers if it would mean a 2-3% dps increase and potting would become mandatory unless they raise dmgoutput via weaponvariety.

At this point, god bring the dps meters xD

39

“A few MMOs have it and many people praise this feature.”

Many people also hate it.

I’d like to see a compromise of a self DPS meter only so you can track your own build efficiency without the toxicity that the group DPS meter brings.

1 Like
40

If dps meters breeds toxicity, then would leader-boards not do the same?
You will kick garbage players because they are not picking up their weight or running the ‘meta’, because ultimately you are trying to min/max everything to get that juicy top spot…

Now if you say - “I’m happy not to join them groups that want to go for top 10”, then why aren’t you happy to not join the groups that will call you out on a dps meter (because they are the same people or just a toxic group in general)? If you think it’s because of accessibility, then just make it less accessible i.e. logs with 3rd party site… The avg person wouldn’t bother

This will be a HUGE benefit to the people seeking to do better but not being able to receive help or feedback because there’s not much to go from other than ‘use this build & prioritize doing this’

For me - I like to min/max a tiny bit, but I like trying ‘off-meta’ things and showing that they are viable… like a light sns dps (very underrated with double bane stack)… But this is sooooo hard to test, especially nowadays, as measuring/comparing dps is far harder than measuring flat dmg with 1hit target dummies + bugged perks that don’t get fixed + shadow changes.

1 Like
41

This is not how dps works