Same here. I’ve witnessed the toxic behavior of toxic players directed at friends that I choose to play with because I like them as people but whom aren’t the most elite players. I also know that I can’t help another player improve their play if I can’t determine what they are doing wrong and sometimes that isn’t as simple as it sounds. Parsable logs are really the only way to definitively see what someone is doing and try and break it down and figure it out. Even video and streams aren’t always obvious. Logs make a lot of created content everyone loves to consume possible as it becomes an objective tool to critique builds and helps troubleshoot bugs.
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Parsable logs are really the only way to definitively see what someone is doing and try and break it down and figure it out. Even video and streams aren’t always obvious.
The day they added Logs to ESO was the single best thing they ever did.
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I agree, but only as long as it’s kept that way. I’m not at all in favor of DPS meters the way skada, recount, or details are used in WoW. I don’t think we need e-peen contests in chat (more than there already are) or people getting crapped on because they’re parsing slightly lower than someone else.
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That’s a big Nope from me.
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Dps meter are generally bad for any game
Even if its an old example, is world of warcraft a clear proof of dps meters only make things worse.
Which is the reason why FFXiV not have one. In fact Square Enix have banned all addons, and it’s now against the ToS to use them
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+1 as a WoW transplant who spent time in ESO as well; it’s kinda jarring how little “true mmo features” this game has for min-maxers and such. The fact that it is just now starting to get a transmog system blew my mind
There’s a couple of PvE-Oriented M10 only guilds on my server that do exactly this already, so…?
I’ve personally improved a lot and learned from DPS meters in seeing when people use things and looking at logs/parses.
The hard truth is that WoW logs make it so no one can really hide. You mess up or do bad it’s pretty obvious where the dead weight is.
Not everyone is ok with being exposed or facing the hard truth.
Imo too many people confuse honesty with toxicity.
The other side of this argument is that DPS meters can show that off meta builds can be viable and do good / competitive DPS.
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Which is the reason why FFXiV not have one. In fact Square Enix have banned all addons, and it’s now against the ToS to use them
FF14 has Logs. which is imo the bare minimum for a MMO that wants to take PvE content seriously
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ESO on console before training dummys were a thing. required video submissions of a Boss kill solo. usually normal bloodspawn or Slimecraw. and would use that as DPS meters. the second content gets hard enough that people need to start being super selective, they will find a way regardless. may as well give people an accurate metric in the form of
https://www.fflogs.com/
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/
https://www.esologs.com/
so they can prove that offmeta specs are viable in high level content.
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Yes. But logs are against the ToS now. All addon’s, all forms of parsing
I don’t know if square enix has taken any action against any players doing it
But again, it is against ToS now
People are toxic already even without DPS meter. Also, I don’t believe it’s toxic to get to know that DPS that is afking or doing 1/5 of the other 2 DPS and making us fail mutations.
DPS meter does not make people toxic, toxic people will be toxic anyways.
It just looks like people want to hide things while not doing what they are expected to, so then they can continue not doing it. I can’t see how toxicity could be the main issue of DPS meters…
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logs are most definitely not against TOS. if they were they could easily disable the combat logging feature they implemented themselves.
And is FF any less Cliquey or exclusionary than wow / ESO. from my experience its much much worse. and taking randoms with literally no way of vetting their capacity is risky. so people don’t do it.
Shitting on someone bc their dps is bad was against the old TOS. and remained against the rules when the new TOS was implemented. that didnt change when they banned addons. but that has nothing to do with not blacklisting someone from future runs bc they suck. or not taking someone bc they might suck and you have no metric without looking at FFlogs. that always did and always will happen in Every mmo nothing can be done to change that.
You either give people some metric to prove themselves or you let the community rely on hokey pokey magic and cliques to decide who they do and dont invite. its as simple as that
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Honestly I was so against this idea trying to prove my point why.
That by now seeing these posts popup again and again that I’m actually in favor.
I was a 99+ logger in FF. And I would love to see the toxicity and shitstorm a dps meter would bring by now.
Pretty certain that 99% of the people who ASK for one and haven’t played with a dps meter prior in any game. Would literally quit 2 weeks in xD
If you loved logging in other games and STILL want one in NW, I respect that. But you guys know already that you’re above 99% of the other peoples dps anyway.
So we both know why you’d want one xD
You guys just have not the slightest idea how this would change runs, meta and the general attitude. If you think NW is already a bit toxic you cannot imagine how this would look after the introduction of dps meters.
God I’d bet running pugs would become absolutely impossible with people running 5con and dodging the moment some1 dies just once. Also noone would join to help a pug since it would ruin their own potential log.
NW will be this cringe community where even your avrg log will become of importance xD
The difference between someone who did log at 97+ lvl and someone who never even had a dps meter is so big people have no idea. It will look like some people playing picture perfect while 99/100 will look like toddlers. Once math hits it’s gonna take out any variation out of the game, movement etc. You’ll not find a single tank with more than 5con xD You’ll get kicked out of groups for rolling when you shouldn’t. You will get kicked when you don’t run the exact same route the other top 1% of GS users will run. People will likely throw away healers if it would mean a 2-3% dps increase and potting would become mandatory unless they raise dmgoutput via weaponvariety.
At this point, god bring the dps meters xD
“A few MMOs have it and many people praise this feature.”
Many people also hate it.
I’d like to see a compromise of a self DPS meter only so you can track your own build efficiency without the toxicity that the group DPS meter brings.
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If dps meters breeds toxicity, then would leader-boards not do the same?
You will kick garbage players because they are not picking up their weight or running the ‘meta’, because ultimately you are trying to min/max everything to get that juicy top spot…
Now if you say - “I’m happy not to join them groups that want to go for top 10”, then why aren’t you happy to not join the groups that will call you out on a dps meter (because they are the same people or just a toxic group in general)? If you think it’s because of accessibility, then just make it less accessible i.e. logs with 3rd party site… The avg person wouldn’t bother
This will be a HUGE benefit to the people seeking to do better but not being able to receive help or feedback because there’s not much to go from other than ‘use this build & prioritize doing this’
For me - I like to min/max a tiny bit, but I like trying ‘off-meta’ things and showing that they are viable… like a light sns dps (very underrated with double bane stack)… But this is sooooo hard to test, especially nowadays, as measuring/comparing dps is far harder than measuring flat dmg with 1hit target dummies + bugged perks that don’t get fixed + shadow changes.
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This is not how dps works
I don’t think you understand dps yourself.
DPS meter will bring out exceptionally good players very fast, showing potential dps possibilities of weapons.
I’ve said it before, the 99+ percentile of players is often a MASSIVE difference to anything 97 and below. While it starts dropping from here a lot.
Yet if a weapon is weak, you will not make it “viable” by being a good player. You will just not be allowed to play it. Even if you’re the rank 1 Ice gauntlet player in the entire New Worlds playerbase.
You will still be denied and exchanged for a 60%tile hatchet player in currents state. Even in content where it doesn’t matter at all. And with a dps meter added, your dps will be known 2sec after you apply for a party. Since your previous logs will decide about your acceptance.
Im sorry but i know very well how dps works. The problem i have is preconceived ‘metas’ making viable dps builds shunned because people dont test it themselves. SnS light dps with double bane is probably only 2nd to greatsword in dps, but the avg player doesnt know this. Also BB is considered trash in PVE but it also has one of the best burst in the game, so why is it not a viable secondary weapon?
I think a 99th percentile player using any weapon now theres 0 weaknesses will do exceptionally better than any avg player using the most optimal setup because most of your dps comes from apm, positioning, and skill priorities/rotations…
Also why do you think other players will have access to your historic logs the moment you join a party? I believe to meet middle ground reducing accessibility is needed, and avg people dont even join discord groups to run m10 pugs, let alone demand evidence of historic dps logs
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Also a rank1 IG player probably throws the best showers in the game… having them with barrels on DYN right now would clutch it hard af