Sword and Shield 'sword master' tree needs help

This post is inspired by Dukesloth’s “sword and shield issues” video. In this he lists all the problems with SnS’s abilities (namely the left tree. I’m going to try to add to the discussion.)

The sword master tree doesn’t seem to have a goal and most of the perks seem to be almost randomly tossed in. There isn’t a clear goal if its meant to be a durable sustain fighter, a squishy assassin or a more utility tree, so I’ll dissect it to the best of my ability one talent at a time.

Start from the top row and skipping abilities and their upgrades we start off with:

Empowered stab: Successful heavy attacks give you 30% empower for 5s.

This is fine. You preform a successful heavy and gain a fairly large benefit, and given how fast SnS light attacks are its a solid duration.

Achilles’ heel: The final hit in your light attack chain inflicts a 20% slow for 2s.

Normally this would be a bit of a joke if it weren’t for a perk later on. 20% slow only after getting 3 successful attacks off doesn’t feel that great to put a point in, but the point later on is helpful.

Precision: Sword and Shield critical strike chance increased by 10%

Solid perk. Just a pure stat increase but has nice synergy with a perk later on in the tree.

Freeing Justice: Successfully hitting a heavy attack causes you to lose 1 debuff.

Not my favorite. It can be helpful in some scenarios but not exactly one of my top priorities to put points into for PvE. In PvP it can be passable.

Mobility: Move 33% Faster while blocking.

This perk feels like it wandered into the wrong tree. Without a doubt it belongs more in the defender side than the swordmaster. There is nothing offiensive or DPS about this specially when you consider successfully blocking something will stop your movement. Even as a PvE tank I usually opt out of this. This perk is just bad.

Counter Attack: When you block an attack gain 3% empower for 5s (Max 5 stacks)

This is a great one. Even when I’m running light armor and round shield I tend to pick this one up. Getting rewarded for blocking with an extra bit of return damage is nice. Great perk I always get it in PvP and PvE.

Opportunist: Deal 10% more damage to slowed foes

This is what makes Achilles’ heel worth getting. In swordmaster you get a slow from leaping strike (30% for 3s) and the 2s slow from Achilles heel. This has great synergy with malachite gems and the 200 str perk. You can also pick up Intimidating shield rush for the 30% slow for 4s to help add to the count. Unfortunately this will make you realize most people aren’t just going to let you get 3 lights off on them to get that 2s slow for an easy proc. Amazing perk that stands out in the swordmaster tree.

Confidence: While at full health, deal 15% more damage.

Garbage. There is no scenario in PvP or PvE where you’re going to have this perk for more than MAYBE one attack if you’re lucky. Most of the time you’ll just lose this to a stray attack. Sure it has synergy with the same gem but this is just a bad idea. Even stacking lifesteal isn’t going to help this perk because as a melee you will get hit. Its unavoidable.

Critical precision: On critical, gain 20% haste for 5s

This is a solid perk. Between this and Opportunist there seems to be some semblance of an idea that sword and shield should be a sticky prolonged fighter.

Leadership: While holding a sword all members of your group deal 10% increased damage>

I have mixed feelings on this, yes it is outright amazing for stats and having one on your team is absolutely noticeable this really doesn’t feel great to have when you’re the one using SnS. You don’t feel the full benefit and its just another ‘increase damage’ function SnS has. I’d much prefer to have something a bit more active than this but I’ll keep it. Its still pretty good

So this leaves us with: 3 Perks in swordmaster that don’t give any additional damage. 4 Perks that leave us with conditional damage increases (Empowered stab, opportunist, counter attack and confidence) and only 2 talents with any significant gameplay changing impacts (opportunist and empowered stab)

This also means the series of events is a bit contradictory for SnS.

You want to start off with leaping strike for gap closing and it has a slow… but you should start with a heavy attack for that 5s empower so that you are double dipping in two different empowers. Additionally leaping strike itself is condictory being a leap that deals more damage to lower health targets, do they want you to not use this until your target is low? Or is this your starting gap closer to get into range? Or do you use it exclusively to slow your opponent?

Reverse stab is unlikely to land unless your target is stunned and you’re always better off with just light attacking instead.

Whirling blade is a joke that is actually smaller than your 3rd light attack hit.

In fact when speccing for dps most of the time you end up having to spec into the defender tree to get abilities that actually sync BETTER with the goal of swordmaster. Shield bash helps land that heavy and shield rush can be used for a slow in the fight after using leaping strike.

So clearly this tree was meant to be some sort of sticky… something build but isn’t clear enough what its supposed to do when you have things like whirling blade, confidence, reverse stab and mobility on top of a group buff.

So when you have all these different empowerments on basic attacks, is it any surprise that the scorpio backstab build has ended up as the main SnS damage strat?

EDIT: and none of this is to mention nearly every single SnS ability has its damage being lowered forcing any PvE DPS SnS to just not use abilities in fear of actually lowering their dps more than it already does.

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:frowning: hat about whirling blade? :sweat_smile:
Both the spell both its perk are a joke :frowning:

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Yeah. Even on release it was trash.

Reverse stab also requires a hail mary to hit and isnt even that rewarding AND its losing the stagger.
PVP SnS has only 3 abilities and PvE has 4.

Still no attention tho because being the only tank weapon means its fine

I’d love it if whirling blade got grit, was just faster or both. To me it seems like the defacto cleave ability with it’s bonuses on multi hit, but with it’s speed, even in the ideal situation, you would just get interrupted.

If the animation was just a straight out spin, for easy 360 degree dmg ( thinking like how Link spins), be good enough for me too.

actually all SS skills are pretty mediocre. all abilities have one of the following problems, if not all. low damage, bad animation, high cd, low buff duration, lack of grit.

which makes us think it’s just a basic attack and blocking weapon. I would even go along with a high skill cd if we had decent cd reduction mechanics like we do with other melee weapons.

S&S Mastery really needs help!!

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if i could buff Whirling Blade i would:
-increase range by 25-50%
-increase damage from 145% to 150%
-increase rend from 5% to 10% or stacking rend to 3 times

If whirling blade applied more than 5% and its tracking wasnt so awful I would use it in a build. Make it more akin to Spears Perforate in the upcoming patch. Give it lots of rend and weaken. Give SnS anything really.

Even if it applied a 5% slow for 5s it would work with the SnS opportunist.

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Heck, if whirling blade rend refreshed and stacked, with no other changes I’d be happy too
Give the defacto tank weapon sunder

SnS has been underwhelming since launch with offensive SnS builds taking multiple nerfs making it increasingly difficult to stick to or trade with other players.

My feedback to Devs would be to:

  • Rework whirling blade to work more like Relentless Freedom from Greatsword (give it much better movement, increased range, mini root or preferably a 5 sec slow and allow us to use it to break free of roots, slows, stuns).

  • Add Grit to Leaping Strike and since you decided it’s more of a utility skill (reduced DMG on PTR) give the 8 second slow back or at least make it a useful 5 seconds.

  • Swap around the perks “Mobility” (increased movement whilst blocking) and “Final Strike” (+15% DMG to third hit in light attack chain).

  • Double the range of shield rush and consider giving it back it’s knowdown from beta.

  • Rework leadership buff so that in addition to +10% damage to group allow it to give grit to basic attacks (light and heavy) to oneself. This then gives SnS two viable tanking methods for overcoming staggers in dungeons (300 con or leadership buff) and makes it more viable for being invited to groups speed running dungeons. This would also help close the gap when trying to trade or point hold in PvP.

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Whirling Blade needs a taunt. It’s awful at the moment.

Don t you think guys that SNS need an attraction skills or perk to be able to regroup monsters and players in the same spot due to nerfing SNS dmg all over ?

A taunt would do nothing to make this skill useful (it’s melee attack so you would need to strike multiple mobs, which it’s useless at doing + has no reach)

They should make the animation on defiant stance a lot faster as it’s way too long and leaves you exposed.

This. Whirling Blade is perhaps the first skill players encounter and also the worst in the game.

Refreshing move is being nerfed so sns needs another taunt. With grit being on 300 CON it will be harder to hold aghro.

Whirling blade definitely needs a lot of love…

As CC:

  • Double its reach to 4m
  • Taunt at 6m radius for 6 seconds
  • Increase end on passive to 10%

OR make it offensive:

  • 175% damage (to make up for gut
  • 5 second slow on passive upgrade instead of rend
  • Change the cooldown ability for s

Reverse stab is used to lower your refresh so it would also be nice as synergy so slap taunt on that as well lol

Whatever Defiant Stance on SnS is called now is definitely too slow. In PVP you get hit several times trying to use it mid-fight kind of defeating the purpose. Never had any complaints for PVE though.

Given how its on the offensive tree i would rather it be an offensive move.

Its currently a 1m range move.

3m and a slow would make it useful

3m and a new much faster animation would be infinitely better.

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Exactly this, whirling blade if reworked should be offensive.

I actually like the change in refreshing move (it was way too powerful across the board). With upcoming changes it:

  • Encourages tanks to stack refreshing ward and tank a bit more aggressively (actively taking damage to reduce CDs).

  • It increases the value of the Reverse Stab perk which reduces CDs.

  • It increases the value of despised & hated perks

  • Encourages more CC on aggressive pulls

  • Further encourages healers to position correctly with initial mob traffic on pulls flowing into tank & DPS pack (something good healers do already) rather than run around like a headless chicken

  • Encourages better positioning from all party members to make use of line of sight to pull any loose ranged mobs in.

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Hoping a dev comes in to at least acknowledge that the entire swordsmanship tree needs attention.

Its pretty bad when 5 perks on one tree are just gem/armor perks.

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I think Whirling Blade needs to hit at waist level and the aoe needs to be twice the size of the 3rd sword light.

This is probably the WORST ability in the game atm.