Tanks and keeping aggro

General Discussion General Discussion
#1

How does strength help a tank to keep aggro? No matter how much damage you do the healer will always have the highest threat because of the AoE healing.
IMO any decent tank should have Refreshing(reduce cooldown by 2.8%) on all his gear.

Lets take hammer and shield
2.8% * 5 = 14%

shochwave
cooldown 20 sec - 14% 17.2sec : 6sec taunt + 2 stun/stagger
clear out
15 sec - 14% 12.9sec : 2sec stun/stagger
shield bash
cooldown 25 sec -14% 21.5sec : 6 taunt 2 stun/stagger
shield rush
cooldown 20 -14% 17.2sec : 2sec taunt/stagger
defiant stance
cooldown 45 - 14% 38.7 sec : 8sec taunt

So the total taunt/stun/stagger time is 28 sec . So by the time you do defiant stance everything ells should be off cooldown simple grade 1 math.

And if you use other weapons you do so by own choice

If you are a tank your role is not to do damage or heal. At 50 con or 100 con one slip up and you are dead or very close. The reason a tank should walk around with 400+ con is incase something happens to the healer you can stay alive until he returns or is revived.

That’s jus my 2 cents

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#2

I think it might be beneficial here to first define what a tank is. From my experience, a tank has 2 primary jobs, with several less important jobs that just make the lives of dps and healers easier.

I’d argue the tank’s 2 primary jobs are to 1. Hold aggro and 2. Stay alive. After that, there’s several things you can do like properly position mobs, cc mobs, and stuff like that to make it easier for dps and healers, but that’s not really the primary purpose of a tank.

Therefore, since the tank’s 2 primary jobs are holding aggro and staying alive, it certainly makes it easier if you are a tanky build with heavy equipment and a shield, but being tanky does not make you a tank. For instance, plenty of dps I know use warhammer and great axe with heavy equipment, which makes them quite tanky. However, just because they are tanky does not make them a tank.

With that in mind, a balance should be found between increasing your dps and increasing your survivability as a tank. This is different for every player, and it’s different for every group depending on skill levels. Running 400 con is gonna make it harder to keep aggro, but easier to stay alive. For me, that would be too easy to stay alive, so I’ll put more attributes into other stats until I approach my limit for survivability. That’s just my playstle and opinion though! You paid for the game, so play it however you want :smiley:

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#3

As mention above tank got two jobs hold aggro and stay alive.

I read about it at launch about how tank generate aggro, sorry I cant find the text now, but a tank generate threat by blocking with his/her shield and lose threat by use dodge, remember this.

As a tank in a boss fight, you wanna start the fight with using your bash taunt ability to get aggro, DS is only needed in hard situations like if you need to hold yourself alive.
But after using bash you also wanna block boss light attacks to keep him on you by generate threat.
At this point you as a tank want to aggro and hold aggro on the boss, but how to avoid get 0 stamina while blocking all attacks, to avoid getting block stunned?

Here is the rotation:

  1. You only blocking the boss light attacks with your shield, this make you lose 10% stamina each hit on your 100% stamina, butyou increase your threat abit by every hit your shield takes.
    Boss mostly does 2xlight attacks and 1 heavy attack.

  2. While your stamina is 80% and the boss get white lighted this is (heavy attack), now you will dodge it, why? cus if you block it, it can cost you 80% stamina and you get block stunned for 4sec.
    If you dodge the heavy attack, you do lose minor threat on the boss, but your block light attacks generate are larger and does help with out in the long run.

Attacks: You can attack the boss after the boss makes his heavy attack, here you have an 4sec window, often you wanna use 2x light attacks, not 3:ed.

I hope this helps!

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#4

I’d disagree. 400 is not useful for con on a tank in a PVE situation. At that point you have around 18k-19k health and you are probably in heavy armor too, that is overkill. 200 con gets you to a little above 13k health which is plenty for the dungeons in this game. I’d say it is better to get the 300 strength grit perk so you are not constantly staggered or holding block the whole time.

The more useful quality in a tank is knowing the dungeon and enemy attacks. Many players are able to do the dungeons and mutations without a tank since the dps is so high, the dps hold aggro over the healer. Doing damage Is part of a tanks role since it contributes to gaining aggro on an enemy and some bosses in the dungeons will punish groups that do not deal enough damage collectively (the boss gets buffed more frequently with Isabella, chardis is a basic dps check at the end, the snake lady in laz has a whole second phase to her boss fight that players don’t see because they dps her too fast before that phase even starts, etc.).

And in mutations you are timed so a tank doing 400 damage on an attack is wasting the group’s time. That extra 3-4K health is not going to make a poor tank suddenly perform better, the knowledge of enemy attacks, when to dodge, block, and attack will contribute more to the success then overloading on con.

#5

Ok good point ,but to make tanking more viable or more wana be played role tanks should get abilities/perks so he can be able to sustain himself not necessarily have to do damage . Every MMO out there tanks have the ability to stay alive and keep aggro not really for doing dmg.
If you do a mute with a bunch of randoms as a tank, you dont know how on point the healer is or if the dps knows what they doing.

How many times in tempest every one dies and only the tank is left or the tank dies in the 2 minutes. With 400 con I can finish the boss fight alone, will take some time but its better than abandoning the dungeon coz every one is running around in light gear thinking they are superman

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#6

The threat generation in this patch is up by a staggering amount. I believe the perk now increases threat by 130% on weapons. And the threat reduction gems/perks have been greatly increased as well. This might make things a little easier all around for all parties, instead of it being a chase the healer game. D:

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#8

I would just like to say you are absolutely wrong. The difference between a tank who constantly blocks and over who uses how weapons for damage are huge. The aggro is never an issue with 200 str/300 con you do more than enough damage and have more than enough survivability.

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#9

I’m sorry to say but you don’t know what your talking about.

I’ve been tanking since December. I’ worked my way through expertise and mutations the hard way. Holding aggro and getting aggro has never been a problem. The people who struggle with it aren’t executing their roles within the mechanics correctly.

Running either SnS w/ Hammer or Hatchet w/ Carnelean Gems and taunt abilities - excluding shield bash and using reverse backstab to refresh defiant stance w/ refreshing move on your sword you can basically chain taunt AE and threat isnt a thing.

There are two good refreshing move swords you can farm - the priest in Myrgard and the Tentacle in Eternal Pools.

You don’t need hated or despised you just need to run the right build and execute your abilities.

Something people don’t commonly know - the stamina damage you take as a tank - it generates threat on the mob. You can test this. Body pull a mob you can tank awhile just block. have someone else use a weapon that wont instantly kill the mob and look at how much health in damage they have to do to pull aggro off you as the tank.

Its enough that in most cases if you have initial aggro on trivial mobs a dps will kill the mob before it stops attacking the tank if all they have is body aggro and block aggro on them.

This patch added a TON of threat for tanks - despised and hated both got buffed from 15% to 150% threat. With your Carnelian gem that’s 450% additional threat up from 330%. That’s huge.

Yes healers generate a lot of AE threat but as a tank you have the toolkit to hold aggo you just need to know how to do it.

#10

I find sns/hatchet to be much better for a “purist tank” (high con/blocking/low dmg) holding agro than sns/hammer. Hatchet taunt is the best taunt in the game, hands down. It’s basically defiant stance with half the cooldown (assuming you immediately swap back to sns).

There’s also an element of taunting that feels somewhat unique to this game (though I’ve only played half a dozen or so MMOs, so maybe not): taunts are more than just temporary attention grabs. They have some kind of residual effect that, when properly built up, will result in agro lock. You can easily see this on bosses, since they have the hp to last more than a few seconds. After you’ve taunted them enough times, you no longer need to taunt or swing to maintain agro.

#11

I run sns/hammer with shield bash, shield rush, defiant stance.

Thats 2 taunts which has me hold plenty aggro from my experience thus far. The shield bash is a double win as it also stuns the enemy allowing me to sync up some nice hammer cc combos to contribute to the team.

my cd reduction is from shield passive where hits reduce cds, and my deep root sword.

Stay alive, hold aggro, and do dmg seems totally viable to me. I also prefer something like 150 str/350 con just to play it safe.

#12

Gonna disagree with this and contend that hatchet’s taunt is the 2nd best in the game, with rapier being the best taunt.

I agree that the hatchet can be better than rapier in some situations. For example AE in genesis is strong against thrust but weak to slash, making hatchet good. Plus defy death is great for light equipment, low con tanking.

However, I would argue that the rapier has the best taunt in the game because it has a shorter CD than hatchet’s taunt, the taunt is an invulnerability frame (iframe), and you only lose a few seconds of taunt duration. However, when considering taunt duration, you must also consider the CD. For a rapier like sacred woodsabre (refreshing + refreshing move perks), the taunt CD can get very low, like 4 seconds. Hatchet’s CD is always at least 12 seconds because the CD doesn’t begin until berserk ends, and berserk ends 4 seconds after the taunt ends (taunt ends after 8 seconds). That means there’s a 22 (18 sec ability cd + 4 sec where taunt is not active, but berserk is still active) second downtime where you cannot taunt mobs with hatchet (before counting refreshing perks). Even if you swap to sns immediately after taunting with the hatchet, it’s an 18 second CD that cannot be affected by refreshing move unless you’re crazy enough to use berserk, swap to sns to begin berserk’s CD, and then swap back to hatchet to use refreshing move.

Rapier’s taunt is a 4 second taunt with an 18 sec CD, leaving a 14 second downtime where you cannot taunt mobs with rapier (before refreshing perks), which is already better than hatchet. However, rapier’s auto attack animations are quicker than hatchet’s, allowing refreshing move to be activated much more in a shorter timespan, resulting in a riposte CD roughly equal to 3-4 seconds depending on how much you auto attack.

But all of this is just the taunts, now we also need to consider how rapier’s taunt has a 1 second iframe with 0 sec of stand time where you are in animation and able to take damage. Additionally, with evade giving you 20 stamina and a hearty ring, rapier lets you dodge 6 times (in light/heavy gear, 7 in medium) if you count evade as 1 dodge. That’s a lot of invulnerability

Hatchet’s berserk has an animation roughly equal to a microstun, which makes you vulnerable to some damage. Although I will admit that defy death makes up for it once per minute.

Then we can consider rends. On top of all this, the sundering riposte perk exists, which is an aoe rend. Sundering shockwave is part of why WH is such a good weapon, but rapier has access to the same type of perk. Hatchet has a rend as well, but unfortunately, it is only single target

#13

I use both situationally and I admit I tank with a VG offhand sometime. It’s situational. For example…

Cilla - SnS + Hammer - go ham with hammer on magic damage phases.
Most of Lazarus - SnS + Hammer - for stuns and shockwave for range pulls and staggers.
The mini bosses in Laz - SnS + Hammer for knockdowns.
Most of Tempest - SnS + Hatchet - the taunts are neccessary and most people dont run bruiser spam in here.
Nesh - SnS + Blunderbuss - blunderbuss to range down orbs in bad dps groups.
Last boss in Genesis - Sns + Blunderbuss - range tank her once you have aggro.
Most of Gen except the mini boss by first clean basin - sns + hatchet - for aoe taunts and slash berserk damage on packs.
That mini boss in Gen - hammer + sns for knock downs and CC.
The tree event - Hammer + SNS = hammer for beter ae range pulling off tree with path of destinty.

I feel like situationally different weapons shine but basically bottom line is the OP’s post saying threat is an issue in all these situations its never an issue. I’ve ran 200/300 STR con, 250/250, 300/200 and i dont notice huge threat differences except when im an idiot with managing taunts correctly and playing to my weapon and build strengths.

#14

Disagree with this on the principle that rapier is a one trick pony in terms of taunt. Most tanks will dodge all over with it and get DPS killed or cause loss of aggro. The iframe is great when it works and its fast refresh but a rapier tank is not a tank. Their a wanna be dps with a weapon that happens to have a taunt that in most group - your average groups - will get the group in to trouble 9 times out of 10.

#15

I think if a weapon’s usefulness is judged based on those who misuse the weapon, all weapons would be bad, right? Yeah, sure you’ll get people who don’t know how to evade properly or excessively move mobs or dps who don’t dodge at good times and die, but just because the skill floor for a rapier with a carnelian is higher than the skill floor for a hatchet with a carnelian does not necessarily make the rapier’s taunt worse

Edit: by skill floor, I mean the amount of skill required to properly use the weapon and it’s ability kit

#16

It does in the context of tanking at least for me.

  • Lowest Skill to Use
  • Largest Area of Effect and Target Count
  • Longest Duration

The goal is get aggro thats all we are talking about. The iframe its nice and a bonus but we are talking about holding aggro. As you said that 1 second where you are stuck in animation and take damage is horrible in situations you need an AE taunt.

#17

Oh, sorry if I was unclear. Rapier has a 1 second iframe during riposte where you can’t move, but mobs are taunted and you do not take damage. Hatchet has an animation similar in length to a microstun during which, you can take damage.

If we only care about getting aggro, we’re back to my first explanation: rapier has a shorter taunt CD. Hatchet’s berserk CD is 18 seconds, the taunt is 8 seconds long, and the CD doesn’t begin until berserk ends (berserk ends after 12 seconds), which means a minimum of 22 seconds where mobs are not taunted and hatchet’s taunt is unavailable. This changes if you berserk and swap weapons, beginning the 18s CD immediately, leaving only 10 seconds where no taunt is active and hatchet’s taunt is unavailable.

With rapier, it is an 18 second cd as well, but a 4 second taunt duration. Which means 14 seconds where no taunt is active and rapier’s taunt is unavailable. However, while you must swap off hatchet to begin the CD, with rapier, you can stay on the weapon and begin applying refreshing move, which procs on the in-between moves on rapier’s light attacks. That makes rapier the fastest weapon in terms of applying refreshing move, and you can significantly reduce the CD to the point where the total CD (including the time where the taunt is active) is 4-5 seconds. Which means 0-1 seconds where no taunt is active, and rapier’s taunt is unavailable

#18

You make a lot of good points, but I think you neglected to consider the boundaries I put on my argument. Specifically, the “purist tank” (high con/blocking/low dmg) comment, and the fact that I was specifically referring to the taunt itself, not the multitudes of other benefits one gets from weapons and perks that often do not allow for apples-to-oranges comparison.

For example, refreshing move is great if you’re swinging a weapon. If you’re not swinging much, as a “purist tank” tends, then it’s not so great. And it can be replaced by other perks that compliment that playstyle and would have to be considered in your argument.

I think a couple of your numbers are off. Rapier’s taunt is half the duration of hatchet’s (4s vs 8s) and you failed to consider range at all (5m vs 8m).

I think we can agree that there are a TON of factors that go into this, including personal playstyle and preferences. I don’t think there’s one best taunting weapon or tanking method. All have their plusses and minuses. But I do think that, isolating everything to the weapon itself, the hatchet is the best taunt in the game - which was my original point. Comparing it that way, you have:

Hatchet: 8s duration/8m range/18s cooldown (-8s duration)
Rapier: 4s duration/5m range/18s cooldown (-4s duration)

Hatchet wins in every category.

#19

You’re right, we shouldn’t judge a weapon by those who play it poorly. That said, I’ve yet to find a light tank that I didn’t feel was reducing the party’s dps with their dodges, either by moving the mob or turning them around. The time the 3 dpsers spend repositioning is a much greater dps loss than whatever dps gain the tank is seeing.

I have to say, I do like the variety in tanking that New World offers. There are dozens of different and viable ways to pull it off.

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#20

Ah, yeah I did overlook the purist tank boundary, sorry!

Oh honestly I didn’t realize the ranges were different, my bad. But for the hatchet cooldown, you gotta remember that’s 18s only if you taunt and swap immediately. Otherwise, the berserk lasts 12 seconds, and the CD begins after berserk ends. But the taunt doesn’t remain for the full duration of berserk. So we’re looking at 10s (18s CD-8s taunt duration) of no taunt active, and no hatchet taunt available to use, which is better than rapier’s 14s of no taunt active and no trapper taunt available for use, but only if you swap off the hatchet within 4s of taunting — otherwise rapier’s CD wins out

#21

I don’t think either of us is going to convince each other of the opposite’s opinoin. This is one of those situations where I am willing to agree to disagree. This is like arguing about two fantasty football players that are both top teir running backs where you can’t go wrong either way.

S Tier
Hatchet
Rapier

A Tier
Hammer

B Tier
Great Axe - due to taunt not being AE aoe but directional column.
Blunderbuss

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