Tanks and keeping aggro

I have Black metal Stud that has Depised perk. It generates 145% more threat.

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Hated on a sword and shield dont stack so get it on the shield and go for ref move as your sword priority for cooldown reduction. With it you can ignore all other refreshing perks its that good. Ref wards sucks sonce it doesnt count blocked attacks.

That said i dont have despised, dont run hated, use ref move and run 250/250 build w/ rev backstab, shield rush and defiant stance and have never had aggro problems in any group going back to pre expertise and normals. Skill is far more important than most things in this game. If you dont know how to use your tools they wont be effective.

Theres probably a dozen viable ways to build a tank and none work if you can do mechanics and manage aggro appropuatley.

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Hated perk do stacks on shield and sword, because this perk are active just by unsheating weapon.

are you sure that hated on sword and shield stacks? because every other perk which is on both weapons only works as if u had only one of them on either shield or sword afaik

If moderator is correct, they stack. But, honestly, I haven’t tested. Don’t even know how to do it.

There is no way to actually test if they do actually stack or not. So unless we get a definitive response from a developer @Kay @Luxendra then we won’t know for sure.

My understanding is that in the past double perk items were removed from the game and we were told they didn’t work properly to begin with. We’ve also been told that the difficulty with fixing the shield attributes not working had to do with how the sword and shield were programmed and treated as one item either in the past or still currently.

What we can do is test perks we can actually stack and see if they do stack. A great example of this is sturdy which doesn’t appear to stack either.

There are dropped weapons you can find with Sturdy on them. By themselves it works as expected. You can go to a mid level zone block take X damage, equip the sword block take 90% of that same damage. It’s something you can reliably test and see.

Now equip a shield with sturdy on it with that sword it still only reduces stamina damage by the 10% of one sturdy perk.

That’s the scientific argument for them not stacking.

This doesn’t cover why you shouldn’t need them to stack.

A non tank without carnelian without despised or hated only generates 33% of the threat of a tank with carnelian. If you throw hated on one item - they only do 22%. If they throw calming in one piece of gear - just one and it can stack upto 3 times to max 99% reduction - then they do 12.2% threat of the player who is tanking.

Despised + Hated w/o calming is 16% threat of the tank.

This doesn’t even take into account what you lose from spending that extra perk on hated or despised.

For most tanks they get despised off the Black Metal Stud which is Despised, Refreshing, and Purifying Toast.

Doom’s Chance is the alternative… Refreshing, Refreshing Toast, and Regeneration.

Refreshing wipe each other out.
Refreshing Toast is better than purifying toast because most tanks are running backstab and should have contagious backstab and we have a perk to let us heavy attack to clear debuffs.

So you have a arguably marginally useful perk on that earring except certain mutations but have other ways to deal with debuffs in trade for 30% reduction in ability to drink health and regen potions.

Then there is regeneration. .5% health per second. Back of the napkin math again… that’s 130 health per second in regen on a 13k tank. That’s passive healing AND threat on everything in the area. You don’t even have to be hitting the mob. And your handly 450% threat modifier from 1 hated… that makes that the equivalent of constant AOE dealing 585 damage to everything.

Also 30% more threat from taking potions… eating a potion on cooldown when you have health to fill - yes it wastes mana but it also generates threat.

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I don’t trust the forum moderator’s track record with providing complete or accurate answers. Even this answer doesn’t correctly answer the question.

Following the main question from @SauloMagno i would like to officially answer that the perks “Do Not Stack” if they specifically alter or buff any skill. Otherwise perks that provide “General Stats” like Crit, Str, they do stack.

It basically says that it “should” which I think most people would agree. But it doesn’t say it always does, which would imply if it doesn’t stack it’s a bug.

Sturdy hasn’t stacked going back to at least January or February when I tested it myself when I got a sturdy sword drop. Sturdy doesn’t alter or buff any skill. By this logic then it should stack. But we can test this and it doesn’t.

So it’s a safer bet to assume it doesn’t stack being that 1) you can’t prove it does and 2) it really isn’t necessary if you look at the math and 3) what you give up to get it - is just too much.

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I just don’t get why it’s so difficult to inform players which perks are stackble, officially. It isn’t rocket science, I guess.

Bump?

Just my opinion feel free to use or not

This worked both before and after hated/despised change.

Sword/shield, hammer. (Genesis, lazarus, Dyn, Depths)
sns/hatchet/hammer (tempest)

300str or 311
200con or 211

Refreshing move sword, bane, hated/dmg perk
Im my opinion refreshing move is the best perk, you can play in heavy ward 200 con, slot appropriate gems and swing away, refresh your abilities and taunt more often. I know some people use 50/100 con, again do whatever youre most comfortable with, but make sure you perform the most important tasks of the tank, hold aggro, clump mobs to the best of your ability and dont die.

I recommend leadership to buff your dps and your own dmg. This will help you do dmg for threat and reduce the overall time you have to tank mobs/bosses in general. One of the biggest issues in genesis is the first boss, alluvium marl the caretaker. He sorta has a dps check, the boss is incredibly easy if you just go all in first phase (hatchets are op and every dps should use them) and leadership can assist by giving your team a nice 10% dmg boost all the time. However, if you decide to go 1-4 as is the common strat, youll notice you dont have much issue as the tank but your dps struggles to kill the outside mobs. Or you could run 4 dps healer but make sure if youre the dps you find your shift key because one of you is taking aggro lol.

The way i see threat: your dmg x carnelians 300% threat generation. Meaning that it helps to have 300 str; however, under the current hated/despised buff running hated/despised means you should be able to comfortably run 300con if you so choose. Remember, just because youre the tank doesnt mean you should always have your shield up. Instead of dodging you get a shield, so swing at the mobs and block when you feel necessary. Not swinging is where threat generation issues arise.

Lets talk about secondary weapons

Hammer: i feel this is the best current off hand tank weapon, its up to you which abilities but think about yourself and your team. Shockwave can apply both a stun and a threat. The stun is the most important part as it can heal and provide some breathing room when initially engaging. Flatten is another awesome perk which again helps the team and yourself by providing much needed cc, especially in mob heavy dungeons like the depths. Path of destiny is great to aggro mobs at a distance, get some heals etc. You can choose to run armor breaker but if you feel your team already has enough rends i recommend going for more cc.

Dps: i feel its important to also mention how crucial your job is to help the tank, in depths it can be very challenging at times when doing the initial pull (at least for me), i recommend running to your tank, run around him if you can, and sweep with your spear to aid the tank in the initial grouping phase. Running far away from the tank just means i have to go all the way to you to grab the mob. I make plenty of mistakes so its gonna happen, just run it back to me and ill do my best to grab it. I cant tell you how nice it is to have dps who assist in ccing the insane amounts of mobs in depths. It also helps in tempest as well. Sometimes you get ahead of the healer or the healer is being targeted by a pesky ranger so sacred ground doesnt hit the floor right away, this is where dps can buy the tank some crucial breathing room, the tank can even swap to hammer to regain some hp and go back to blocking. If the heal is down right away its not that necessary, but those rangers eat healers up.

Hatchet: in tempest i use both hatchet and hammer just depends on the mood. But pre hated/despised buff man the taunt from hatchet was so nice, especially right before spriggan when the waves spawned in and you might not always have a defiant taunt ready. I tried hatchet in depths but the lack of cc is really noticeable so i went back to hammer. Oh the defy death can be nice but if you need it odds are youre going to die anyway bcuz you have no way of ccing the targets in front of you.

Spear: its nice, it has good cc, fortifying perforate can basically operate as a sword and shield at times. However the taunt is lacking when you compare it to hatchet or hammer.

Rapier: amazing taunt and you can stun the enemies after a taunt, fleche can help you get away from the floor is lava mechanic in tempest, but fleche doesnt have grit. Again id personally rather have a hammer but thats just my preference.

For sword and shield i use reverse stab, shield bash (stun/taunt) and defiant stance. I know others like the fortifying shield rush and its a fine perk alternative, pick whatever works.

As a tank for pve, and in dungeons, I use the weapons, shield, and earring with the hated perk.
Before the hated change it gave 15% taunt.
Now gives 145% (gs 625).
Try one by one.
With the carnelian T5 and hated on the sword, the aggro worked incredibly better than before and lasts longer, but although longer, the taunt lost it.
I added the shield with hated, and from then on I don’t lose the mockery. The dps are dealing full damage and the healer is healing and the mobs never go to them. They are focused on me. So hated on the shield is added with the sword.
Then, just to test, I also added hated on the earring. The dps and the healer hit the mobs (I don’t attack them), and the mobs come to hit me, the tank without me attacking them.
So 145% taunt on the earring, plus 145% on the shield and 145% on the weapon along with the 300% on the carnelian. I can guarantee you that the taunt system is fixed and I checked it in all the expeditions and in all the levels of mutations

I hope you’re right, but I’m very skeptical that perks on both sword and shield don’t stack, but somehow the hated perk miraculously stacks.

While I was doing some testing with lifestealing on both sword and kite shield, not only do they not stack, but they actually cancel each other out, resulting in 0 lifesteal! So I’m worried that similarly having hated perk on both sword and shield will cancel each other out.

And because I am very paranoid about the spaghetti coding, I’m worried that the hated perk on the sword won’t work for shield skills. So I decided to get the hated perk on my shield.

Maybe even devs don’t know If Hated perk stacks on shield and sword.

Wish we threat meters

If we’re talking a single mob, 300 str is not necessary to hold agro exclusively via dps (it doesn’t hurt, of course). You can easily do it with 100ish strength. Carnelians are very powerful in that respect. Add in hated and it becomes a cakewalk.

Many mobs, maybe higher strength becomes necessary, as you might need to spread out your dps if the mobs are not properly grouped. But many mobs are what AoE taunts are really designed for.

I guess it also warrants addressing how you approach a regular versus mutators.

In regulars with no timer tanks and newer groups tend to play conservative and in doing so they actually make things harder for themselves. There are ideal pulls that no only save time for the runs but also are safer to attempt since the only threat is the tank damage and the healers ability to heal direct target based damage. Because healers healing is mostly AOE most early groups tackle content in a way that is inefficient for time but optimized to healing many people a little bit.

The big pulls we do in mutations are not only about time. The archers and similar mobs with high burst single target dps will start killing light and medium armor players with 1 or 2 shots. Those big pulls not only save time they are usually optimized for using Line of Sight to cluster them all up so they can all be contained in one small area for AOE and CC. You group them up, lock them down, and mow them down.

This puts a high bar for the healer to be able to keep the tank alive and it puts high barrier on tanks to manage their stamina properly but from a group perspective it’s the safest way to actually do it once you hit mid mutators. Really the way we learn them on regular not matching mutators is part of the learning barrier people always go through.

In that context, the taunts are all you need regardless of if your using a hammer, a hatchet, a rapier, or great axe your going to be taunting nearly everything in the area on cooldown if needed. Threat don’t matter when mobs are all taunted.

But in regulars where teams dont tackle those pulls that way that is when threat becomes an issue. Your running around trying to hold aggro on 5 differen tindividual mobs your group is killing one at a time and it takes 3 times as long to run the instance.

The only other time threat is an issue in dungeons is when the DPS drastically out gears the tank especially in mutators. This occurs because of the damage reduction scaling that occurs based on gear score. Threat occurs after the damage is taken so if your only doing a fraction of the damage your DPS to begin with and then your under geared and penalized damage. It’s like peeing on a apartment complex fire. That’s when hated or despised or both come into play. Otherwise those mobs are going to be beating ont hat DPS evertime your taunt wears off. Althought in that situation they can usually survive it.

Agree with pretty much everything you’ve stated. For the situation you describe here, I’ll point out that it is very inefficient to try and hold agro with dps. Taunts are the better solution here, by far.

Yes and no. There is an unusual aspect to taunts in this game that you can reach a state of agro-lock. You taunt a mob enough times and he’ll just stay on you without further taunting, even if you haven’t hit him even once. Easy to see on bosses, but regular mobs are often not alive long enough to see this take effect (so your point stands).

How many hours do you have and do you do m10s?

I had a problem keeping agro in the Depths mutation but I started using the reverse stab with upgrades for the CDR and Hatched because the agro is the same and the CD is around 16 seconds.