Sure the point of the rapier is to get in… do damage and get out… the problem is… all it takes is a single AOE from the GA or Hammer and its game over most of the time
Ye dude, I got a few guys that are so good they would duel GA users and use only rapier to beat them.
I see your point about Heavy AG users, b.c ye they would use Rapier to do some damage but mostly to get away from the them switch to Musket/Bow and finish them.
But still there need to be some kinda Rock/Paper/Scissors balance, If Rapier can beat AG users in light and Medium they should be some counter like using Heavy. otherwise, what is the point of going Heavy if everyone already can run away from you and now they can take you out with no problem being up close. do you get my point?
And about Balancing weapons around bad/average players. You will always have complaints then. As there are people who will take the weapons that got buffed for bad player use and make it look OP.
My points have been about issues with the Spear or Rapier, such as hit detection and janky gameplay. This isn’t a cry for buffing these weapons, but fixing problems that make them so awful to play with. If AGS wants to nerf Rapier damage because it is too high, go ahead, but they should make these weapons satisfying to use and an expression of skill-based gameplay. Really, you need to have had used meta melee weapons such as the greataxe, and then used the spear, to really appreciate the difference between these two.
Can a very good player make these weapons work? Sure they can. But there is a reason why the current melee meta in both mid-scale pvp (OPR) and large-scale pvp (wars) is greataxe/warhammer heavies. These weapons are extremely forgiving to use: they have good hitboxes, great aoe cc abilities that have a ridiculous range, and hit for large amounts of damage. Try the spear. More often than not you are left looking like an idiot when your perforate hits nothing.
The upcoming patch isn’t going to change the balance between Dex and Str melee weapons. Until AGS picks up their balls to introduce diminishing returns on cc, the warhammer will still be the meta melee weapon.
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I can see that with Spear, I tried to main a spear at some point felt awful. WIth Rapier I am making a switch right now, it feels fine to use.
But I agree with you a lot of weapons need improvement.
I can’t agree about meta switching to DEX. on My server its already happened most people run in DEX builds. With the new patch, even more, people will be switching.
‘diminishing returns on cc’ ye… I can see that.
Not sure why that is the case on your server. On mine, warhammer/gaxe is the premium build in both OPR and wars.
I guess for Wars/Invasions I do see enough Warhammers GA nothing changed in here but b.c I don’t do them often enough I don’t recall care. But in OPR and in Open World all I see is Musket/Bow now lmao
I am on board with the spear feeling less than ideal but I think your entirely off base with rapier. I use rapier in most my builds and feel its hands down one of the best weapons in the game. As you pointed out the mobility makes it a great secondary weapon. But on its own its also has some of the best burst damage and outplay potential in the game. You don’t need tracking and adjustments to the auto attacks. What you do is fleche–>backstab–>evade into a few lights. Sure they are going to be able to run away from your autos after, but there is a big if here. IF they live through that burst damage. Fleche is your way of getting damage in and its low enough cooldown. Not even getting into the fact that overall its the most well rounded kit in the game. There really is no reason you cant kill a GA player with it. You just have to get in for damage, avoid getting hit, and burst again when its right. You cant just go toe to toe and expect vcictory.
I love spear. It does soo much damage that I’m happy with it. The tracking is a bit off but you can time your abilities + it’s a team game. Outside of duels if you tag along with hammer or ga guy you can even play it with full pve right side build! You will rend and back stab impalers are crazy
My comments have to do with the general feeling of playing the Rapier, not its burst potential or its ability to win duels. I agree that Rapier hands down has the best dps and burst damage in this game, and yes it can win against a gaxe player. Your post demonstrates exactly what’s wrong with the Rapier: it relies too much on “Evade” and “Fleche” to tie everything together.
Firstly, this reduces build diversity: Rapier players overwhelmingly choose the right weapon mastery tree rather than incorporate skills from the left tree because of “Evade” and “Fleche”.
Secondly, when the aforementioned 2 abilities are on cooldown, everything else about the Rapier feels quite of a clumsy mess to play. How many times have you flinched because you accidentally transited into the 4th hit of the Rapier’s 4 light attacks combo (this is the attack that we Rapier players actively try to avoid)? Why is there a significant pause between the 1st hit to the 2nd and 3rd slash hits in the 4 attack combo? These are my points about the Rapier at the moment.
Again I repeat, AGS can reduce the damage of Rapier if it is too bursty. But make the damn weapon feel smooth to use instead of forcing players to rely on “Evade”.
Not true. Rapiers generally weight about the same as other one handed swords.
The average weight of a Rapier is 1kg (or 2.2lbs). You are correct that the Rapier is about the same weight as a one-handed sword, yet the one-handed sword in this game feels so much better to use.
The OP is completely right about the spear. That’s the only thing I’m going to comment on since I don’t play rapier.
I have 933 hours of gameplay and around 850 of those hours are with bow/spear.
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Spear has a ridiculous amount of problems right now and while it is true that you can make it work that doesn’t mean we should ignore the amount of bugs spear currently has.
There are videos that go over 5 minutes long just showcasing all the bugs spear currently has. Unfortunately, AGS keeps buffing the spear instead of fixing it. No amount of buffs are going to make up for the bugs it has. It would be a very strong weapon if it worked right.
Sweep bug which is crucial to work right, otherwise we’re just pretty much dead - Sweep - YouTube
The list of many bugs the spear has that are known, there’re likely more than these - Spear bugs? - YouTube -
The tracking of spear la’s/ha’s and abilities is nonexistent. It’s like playing with a melee musket/bow where you need to hit exactly where the player is and once you press the button your animation is going to go where you pointed at the start of the animation no matter what.
Let’s compare that with a Warhammer now.
Try using any of the great hammer’s abilities. While pressing the button for any of your ability and while you’re inside of the animation you can rotate and do 360’s if you want and your hammer is going to hit where your crosshair is at the END of the animation.
Try looking at the either left or right side of your opponent, not directly at your opponent and press your LA/HA. They go on your opponent.
This is something that the spear needs as well.
Hopefully, the upcoming patch is going to help with that. I’m genuinely looking forward to it because spear is by far my favorite weapon.
4 Likes
I’ve ran Firestaff/Rapier since release and I understand where you’re coming from. The light attacks CAN… feel clunky. Rapier does have a lot of animation cancellation abilities and such a massive cool down % that even if you get that “clunky” feeling…most players can or will transition to a roll/dash or an ability and not really even notice the .5s delay. In my opinion, it’s one of the more, if not the most, smooth weapon option… and once you have the Rapier down pat…it’s like sliding on butter it’s so smooth.
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The whole points of them as secondary is to create distance. Not to stay and fight.
You sweep and gain distance.
You fleche and gain distance.
Rarely do I stay and fight. I irritate and take up the time of people until they run away bored. Then I shoot them as theyre running away.
If you are able to catch me, it’s normally because Im outnumbered and didnt see someone behind me since the view is shite in this game.
The ONLY thing that is annoying is the auto follows from GA and VG. But, I have 10K health and that gives me enough time to normally get away before dying.
Anyways, you are 100% right. Toe to Toe, why bother? GA, War Hammer, Sword/Shielf, VG, IG, FS, etc. They can all destroy a rapier if a rapier user just does light attacks over and over.
Yeah, but rapier and spear are weapons of their own, they should be able to be played primarly.
How do you know that is their intended point?
The spear + rapier are used solely for their ability to combo, but when the abilities are on cooldown, people immediately switch to a weapon with more comfortable auto attacks.
Even though the weapon is used this way, it shouldn’t be. All weapons should have good timings on their light/heavy attacks. The damage can be tweaked to be balanced with other melee weapons but the goal is to make the light attacks to feel good on the spear/rapier.
In my experience, the auto attacks of the spear are too slow, and the rapiers two swipes are an animation lock that you have to avoid using. While using a spear’s first light attack, I am often animation locked and can’t react to a Hammers shockwave. A rapiers goto attack is a light - evade - light. After this combo, the rapier is switched out, because the light attack combo is lackluster.
Changing the animations to be faster and nerfing the damage is also fine. All I want is the auto attacks to feel fluent and responsive.
3 Likes
Just an update on the spear after patch 1.2: the hitbox increase and added tracking to the spear have been just what it needed. The tracking isn’t overdone, i.e. if you time your attacks or abilities wrongly, you will still miss with them. Perforate actually lands 3 hits regularly now and is extremely powerful in PVP because of the 30% Rend debuff. Animation speeds for light attacks should still be faster but honestly, I will take what I can get from AGS nowadays.
Have a great time in patch 1.2 everybody.
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Thanks for the update. I was using spear pre-patch but started to dabble in rapier to go along with my musket.
Just curious do you use spear with medium armor or light. I used mostly medium just so I can survive a tad longer so I can land one of the CCs. With the patch, do the recent changes warrant a specific armor type in your view?