(Video Proof) Reliably using rapier's evasion iframe to dodge enemy incoming abilities

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1

Title. Had some people saying on forums that due to the short iframe from evasion it’s impossible to reliably dodge enemy incoming abilities.

Someone was talking smack and told me to upload proof that it was… so here you go.

I dodge spear sweep, GA Reap, GA gravity well, and spear heavy attack, all using evasion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58nlRr8BMbM

link to thread for my detailed post on rapier as it is and ptr feedback.

Inb4, “buT Yo?U CAnT dO tHIs In WpvP or OPr”. Yeah, you can, like anything practice and then you’ll be able to evade incoming enemy abilities reactively with good reflex and timing or proactively when you’re expecting the enemy to use a certain ability.

  • Another player commented this under this post. He iframes ice barrier using evasion.

While this may not be a great example, this is an example of using evade to iframe ice gauntlet attacks. https://i.imgur.com/OWdFeEK.mp4

My response to a comment, this gives more clarity to how evasion works, so it can be extremely useful if this is something new to you.

I agree with it being high risk - high reward: this is after all my initial argument. By the way, the snare post evade can be canceled by dodge rolling right after evading (in case you didn’t know). I don’t deny that in some situations it’s going to be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to use evade to dodge certain abilities, such as being in the middle of a capture point on OPR. For the most part, however, particularly in small scale skirmishes or 1v1’s (which are the kind of scenarios you should be looking for as a rapier player, as opposed to being in the middle of a crowded capture point) there isn’t much of an issue of wonkiness interfering with your ability to use evasion to dodge.

Your timing does need to be spot on, but what is extremely important in this regard is that the timing IS consistent. Meaning once you’ve engrained into your muscle memory the timing for dodging a spear sweep, you will then afford yourself the opportunity to turn it into second nature where you don’t need to be consciously anticipating the animation, but rather as soon as you see it trigger your muscle memory commands you to evade.

Different abilities have different timings required, and yes in a wonky sense. What I mean by this is that to evade successfully you need to i frame that precise window in which the incoming ability is coded to register as having hiting you within its animation unfolding. For spear sweep that tends to be relatively early in its animation, just before the animation of the spear descends to the floor and completes a 180 sweep. To contrast however, hammer abilities function significantly differently. Hammer animations tend to have longer animations, meaning there is a wind up portion (the portion of the animation that doesn’t actually do anything to you) before getting to the point in the animation where impact is coded to register. Shock wave ( if my memory serves right) is a good example of this, because unlike what youre seeing in the video i posted, shockwave actually requires you to delay your evasion until a relatively later portion in the animation. If you attempt to evade early, like we do here in the video against a spear sweep, you actually will fail to evade the hammer shock wave and therefore be hit.

To give even further example, look at the video and watch the difference between evading reap and evading spear sweep. Spear sweep impact is coded to register early in the animation, in this sense we consider the animation “short”. Reap however requires you to evade after the first extension of the GA and just before the GA is pulled back. The difference is in the former you evade at an early point of the animation and the latter you evade at something of a mid point in the animation

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What is this trash? Anybody can do it if you just stand across from someone who you’ve coordinated with and wait for an attack you know is coming. Where is the video of you using it effectively in live combat against someone you aren’t coordinating with? Queue OPR and make good use of the skill in there.

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Sorry kid, but people were saying its not reliably useable to dodge. This is video proof to the contrary. Now you can take this video and go practice and try and do it in OPR. Im not going to hold your hand. Just git gud.

Toxic silly reply.

4

This video is useless. Obviously anyone can use it in this vacuum like scenario.

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Then don’t comment? You obviously don’t know what you’re talking about and you’re here to troll. I was arguing that evasion is a high-skill ceiling ability that CAN be used to dodge incoming abilities reliably. A few people denied this possibility. This video demonstrates it is possible as I dodge various abilities in a row. Being able to use this in OPR and WPvP is a matter of practice, muscle memory, reflexes. This video is the premise that renders my conclusion valid; that conclusion being evasion dodging is not just a factor of random chance that should therefore not be relied upon, but rather the opposite, it is a skill that requires long term practice to increase the odds of successfully evading different abilities overtime as a player becomes more and more familiar and developes greater muscle memory.

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Can people just… you know… not f’ing cheat all the time? Blah blah blah it’s in the game and it’s not your fault right? Never is. Just don’t f’ing do it!

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This isn’t cheating LOL. It’s an intended mechanic that is difficult to execute. Did you read anything?

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8

Now show how you do consistently without coordinating it with a buddy, preferably in OPR mess and with server delays :grin:

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Whether you’re in OPR or outside everfall doing it with a buddy, its the same game, its doable in both circumstances. Obviously doing it in a real time/fight is much more difficult, hence my argument of it being high skill ceiling.

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The reason this video doesn’t really count as credible proof is because with lag and desync the ability glitches out constantly. You knew all those attacks were coming. It’s super easy in a controlled environment to just push the button on reaction to any type of animation. You knew he was going to use an ability. Not that he was going to heavy attack or dodge or strafe. Seriously this is a useless example. You show a video of you consistently using it in OPR or open world then I’ll concede.

Increasing the iframe window to that of a regular medium or heavy dodge would help counter the lag issues and some abilities still being able to hit you through it.

The real issue with evade though is the ridiculous slow walking snare you get after using it if you don’t light attack.

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11

I am not sure that you even read, or watched the video before commenting. I use the evade rapier build with a musket, and its pretty nice in OPR and WPvP. I can literally spam light attacks between evades, and spam it over and over since the light attacks reduce the CD. This means 1vX I can evade nearly all attacks as long as my light attacks are hitting more than 1 enemy player. Top that off with the crazy burst damage from the Rapier, its a fun and engaging build.

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12

Isn’t it specified in the skill tooltip?
Well, but guess what, people don’t read. A video is fine for them.

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I actually agree with the snare being pointless and would be a valuable and appreciated buff if removed.

I downloaded shadow play for the specific point of videoing myself doing this, I don’t usually video my gameplay, and if I had recorded my 400 hours of gameplay so far I certainly would have a compilation video of me doing in this WPvP/OPR situations. Sorry but the idea that OPR is laggy and prevents someone from being able to use evasion to dodge is just simply untrue. Likewise, WPvP where lag is not a problem at all. At the end of the day, you’re arguing that lagg is preventing you from doing this, which is an argument concerning your inability to execute and does not concern wether this is actually possible to do in WPvP and OPR.

To give you an example, one of my favorite ways to use this is to dodge a GA reap. You run-up to the GA player and then side step evade or evade back once they reap, just as was done in this video except uncoordinated against real enemy players trying to take my head. Instead of saying its impossible, maybe take a step back and think of all the different ways you could try and bait enemy abilities into dodging them with evade. This is such a diverse ability with a high skill ceiling and simply demanding a real combat scenario video proof is indicative of a denial of ones lack of skill.

I don’t mean to accuse you of the following, but there are allot of bad rapier players who refuse to accept that doing this is possible in open world or OPR because they simply suck. I bet 90% of the players whining in this thread saying its not possible HAVE NOT EVEN TRIED IT IN A CONTROLLED SETTING. Yet they were saying it’s impossible.

If you can accept that the video is new world and not some private server or me hacking, then its borderline impossible to refute that this cant be practiced enough to become muscle memory and used in real combat scenario.

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I use this in OPR all the time. I started with a rapier/musket build and leveled all the way to 60, before also swapping in for a spear/bow.

The Evade/Riposte provides an awesome stun and nearly 100% dodge, with Fleche for a quick escape when you get overwhelmed. The Riposte glitches out sometimes, but this is a solid build if you play it right.

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15

OPR consists of heavy armored hammer axe CC trains. Rapier is the least useful weapon in OPR, being able to evade a single attack does not contribute at all. Beside that, server delays are a valid argument, in the end the server decides if the timing was right.

The iframe is nice though, I just wish there was a hint when the iframes are starting and ending. The slow afterwards is truly annoying though.

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From my experience, in order to reliably dodge you need to stop attacking after the evade, or it will cancel the iframe.

17

Im not sure what you mean. Could you elaborate on this?

18

Yeah, half the people on these forums eat crayons daily.

Second nature to some, literally completely unimaginable/impossible to others.

1 Like
19

I never said it was impossible to use just that it’s not reliable. I avoid damage with it all the time but it’s such a high risk high reward skill that when it doesn’t work you get punished hard because of the snare afterwards.
Also consider this, all regular dodges, light/medium/heavy have 17 frames of invulnerability. Light and medium just cover more distance so it seems like they have more but they don’t. It’s all the same. Evade however has about 8 I frames, about half of a regular dodge. Pretty much every ability in the game can be dodged effectively because there aren’t really any non aoe attacks where a hitbox is present for more than 17 frames. 8 frames though, most abilities that aren’t instantaneous have a hitbox longer than 8 frames. So evading into or to the side attacks is risky. You’re timing has to be pretty spot on and even then sometimes, because of how weird the hitboxes and animations are in this game, you still get hit. Also some attacks are weird where the animation is misleading and will happen either way before the hitbox begins or just after it. Even in the most recent update that is coming they are fixing a ton of issues with hitboxes and animations. Factor that in with input latency and a skilled player will be able to still use the skill effectively %90 but that %10 percent you get caught out of an evade usually kills you.

All that being said, buffing the IFrame window to a regular dodge or even slightly to bring it close would make it so that if you react correctly to an attack you will %100 of the time be able to avoid damage not %90. It will also lower the skill cap slightly so that more of the player base can use it effectively, without making it to easy to use or overpowered. It’s meant to act as an additional dodge so it should have to same Iframe window as a regular dodge IMO.

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I agree with it being high risk - high reward: this is after all my initial argument. By the way, the snare post evade can be canceled by dodge rolling right after evading (in case you didn’t know). I don’t deny that in some situations it’s going to be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to use evade to dodge certain abilities, such as being in the middle of a capture point on OPR. For the most part, however, particularly in small scale skirmishes or 1v1’s (which are the kind of scenarios you should be looking for as a rapier player, as opposed to being in the middle of a crowded capture point) there isn’t much of an issue of wonkiness interfering with your ability to use evasion to dodge.

Your timing does need to be spot on, but what is extremely important in this regard is that the timing IS consistent. Meaning once you’ve engrained into your muscle memory the timing for dodging a spear sweep, you will then afford yourself the opportunity to turn it into second nature where you don’t need to be consciously anticipating the animation, but rather as soon as you see it trigger your muscle memory commands you to evade.

Different abilities have different timings required, and yes in a wonky sense. What I mean by this is that to evade successfully you need to i frame that precise window in which the incoming ability is coded to register as having hiting you within its animation unfolding. For spear sweep that tends to be relatively early in its animation, just before the animation of the spear descends to the floor and completes a 180 sweep. To contrast however, hammer abilities function significantly differently. Hammer animations tend to have longer animations, meaning there is a wind up portion (the portion of the animation that doesn’t actually do anything to you) before getting to the point in the animation where impact is coded to register. Shock wave ( if my memory serves right) is a good example of this, because unlike what youre seeing in the video i posted, shockwave actually requires you to delay your evasion until a relatively later portion in the animation. If you attempt to evade early, like we do here in the video against a spear sweep, you actually will fail to evade the hammer shock wave and therefore be hit. This necessitates that one actually learn when to evade each unique animation which is the basis for its high skill cap.

To give even further example, look at the video and watch the difference between evading reap and evading spear sweep. Spear sweep impact is coded to register early in the animation, in this sense we consider the animation “short”. Reap however requires you to evade after the first extension of the GA and just before the GA is pulled back. The difference is in the former you evade at an early point of the animation and the latter you evade at something of a mid point in the animation

With regards to increasing the duration of evasion, I don’t think there’s much flexibility there. Either you increase and it becomes relatively easy to evade and therefore overutilized and “broken”, or you make it hard and require a substantial amount of hours and practice invested to perfect. I think the latter choice is the better choice in the spirit of PvP and a well developed deep combat system. Although, we could do with the removal of the snare, I think that’s a good idea and we should let AGS know that its a huge nuisance especially when chasing down enemies.