What players think it takes to get good at PvP Vs what it actually takes

Oh geez,

A short, simple question deserving of a long, complex answer.

Short answer: Fighting games.

"Defining Skill

To me, skill in a video game is the summation of a player’s knowledge, intelligence, reflexes, and mechanical ability (how well they can input commands). The higher each of these are, the more skilled the player.

Why fighting games?

As a genre rule, fighting games are probably the highest in terms of both skill floor and skill cap. The controls and inputs are typically harder than most people are used to, and so there’s a pretty significant amount of time practicing basic inputs before people can even begin to dream about competing. The flipside to that, is once you’ve got the basics down, they’re pretty universal across games and so picking up further games is just a matter of understanding the subtle differences.

From there, on the other end of the spectrum, players at the top end are micro-analyzing every single move of each character to understand all the frame data (startup, active, recovery, properties on-block, on-hit, on-whiff, block-stuns, etc.) to figure out their game plan and what the strengths and weaknesses of each match-up is. Two players can pick the same character and play very different styles even though they have the same movelist. That’s skill expression, and is only possible in a game with high skill cap.

The in-between of these, where most active fighting game players reside, is where most casual players slowly learn and gradually develop themselves. If every time an opponent blocks my move they get a free hit, I know to be careful when throwing out that move. If an opponent has special meter built up and a powerful reversal super (think iframes and high priority), I know to be cautious when pressuring them, or maybe even to attempt to bait it out. You don’t need to study the game’s internal data to get better because you can learn A LOT from experience, and there’s so much room for skill-expression that there is no “best way” to play. There’s a lot of analyzing situations looking for an opening or reading into an opponent’s patterns. Every match is a new puzzle to work out, and if you don’t work it out quickly, you lose.

How does this relate to New World?

Action combat games are built on similar principles as fighting games. Abilities have animations, and those animations have startup, active, and recovery frames. Blocking, special moves with special properties, timing, spacing, etc.

Games like New World (or Dark Souls, or Zelda: Breath of the Wild), have simpler combat rules because of a much more limited range of possible actions and no special inputs. This drastically reduces the skill floor and makes the game much more accessible. This, is a great thing, especially for an MMO. I highly expect Riot’s new fighting game in development (Currently called Project L) to be taking this approach, by creating much simpler inputs for attacks and abilities in order to be more approachable to the average person.

Now, AGS removed a key aspect of action combat as you’re highly aware of, hit stun (stagger), when they took it off of melee attacks in December 2020. They’ve tried to compensate that by adding various slows and attack lunges and adjusted hitboxes among other things, and yet I don’t think you’ll find too many people here that think melee combat is feels particularly good. In fact any melee weapons that do “feel good” do so because of the abilities they have which often have stuns and staggers, not because of the way their regular attacks work.

This made zerg combat much easier for the masses, but destroyed a lot of smallscale combat and drastically lowered the skill cap. Even the SnS/Hatchet one-shot builds, which only followed basic combo logic from fighting games, was nerfed because it was too good at killing… other low con squishy targets.

In fact, you’ll be hard pressed to find any aspect of the game where the developers have been interested in allowing any sort of skill-gap. There’s a basic skill floor that involves things like cooldown and stamina management, but beyond that the outcomes of battles are almost entirely gear and meta based. It’s less about how much understand of combat you’ve put in as a player, and more about how much time you’ve spent grinding in game.

A low skill-cap makes the game easy to master, boring to watch, and ultimately makes the PvP uninteresting for people who like skill-based PvP games. This is a BAD thing for New World, as it could easily leverage its PvP into an eSport and drive up both interest and users via platforms like Twitch (which of course, Amazon owns).

Just look at fighting games. EVO is a big fighting game tournament held every year, each event had over 100k average users throughout each day.

How many viewers did TwitchCon’s New World arena event get? 25k tops? And they couldn’t even fill a full roster of teams. Wasted potential.

Fun fact, as of today I’m the first unpaid forum user to get the admired badge.

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Daoc did the best RVR and thats Alonso 20 years ago

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The only thing it lacks is aoe in an aoe game.

In war spear is shit and unfortunately war is the only thing where you have to win to get a worthwhile reward.

In opr its…fine i guess? I have never in my life heard someone ask where all the spears on the team are, but every game you can pretty much guarantee complaints about not enough frontline bruisers.

Its really only arena that spear shines and bruiser does fine there as well.

We’re on the same server arent we? Who are our cracked spear users? I dont know them but ask for bruisers and youll get names.

You play bruiser, of course you think its harder.

Great music choice - Sinatra?

I dunno I see you do a pretty good deal of whining on these forums so I ain’t surprised the first thing you do is try to pass that buck.

Mel torme - no moon at all :+1::grin:

No idea how I’m whining when I never ask any weapon to be nerfed. I never ask any difficulty to be reduced.

Stoca, which is technically bow, marshall which is technically bow, there’s a couple others I forgot the name of.

Are you implying that I don’t run spear…?

Spear.

Just for reference on kills…

More spear

I have more screenshots on my computer of doing this in OPR.

I uhhh… Don’t want to share my build, but the low-ish damage is because spear lacks AoE like you said.

Went 14/1 the game after the 18/7.

I did 700k damage and had 28 kills as a schitzo one game. Meanwhile being GA/WH I can crack 1m regularly because of AoE and only have 12 kills

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Mmm, stat padding AoE.

Does this make spear broken? OP? Nerf now?

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I wish that granted you access to closed table talks on combat :x

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easiest way to get good is get a firestaff and IG that’s it.
after a day of practice you will be top 10 in OPR.

skillsssssssssssssss

I mist be thinking of someone else - could have sworn you were bruiser on valhalla at least recently.

I am. Doesn’t mean I ONLY use GA/WH.

I’m in Lethal.

It also depends a lot on how you arm the abilities of the spear and what your objective is in wars, if it is to go to the front and put states in the area, the spear is the best melee weapon for that.

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I dont think spear has any frontline viability in war. The lack of consistent grit leaves you getting staggered out of a ton of your damage.

As a backline attacker, sure, but ranged dps seems to just deal with the unpredictability of war much better and often times you are better off having your ranged turn to healers instead of locking in multiple spots based on one role.

Not even saying its a bad idea to have like 1-2 spear running around backlines killing squishies, but is it actually worth doing that and giving up the aoe cc that a cookie cutter bruiser brings?

I would say no and i think that really hurts spear.

Imo spear itself needs a reliable escape. Like grit on skewer + a faster cast time on it. Idk, i quit the weapon a while back for this reason - it just seems lacking as a ganking tool and the utility other frontline weapons bring + grit kicks it out of the front line.

NGL.

The buff to thwarted counter is pretty nice. It’s not bad at all.

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Thwarting counter isnt bad but when is that actually worth a weapon perk? Duels against bruisers?

Otherwise you have a two perk weapon when youre switching to squishies.

i mean on spear, going after GA/WH builds specificly as they will probably be swinging wildly while trying to dump every ability on cool down.

meanwhile spear with thwarting counter + its own twat counter skill tree perk would be hilarious.

also really easy to test since blackguard spear has it

not necessarily in duels but if you see a clump of them fighting sneak around behind them and skewer the crap out of em. (40% damage against active grit kinda sounds nuts, dunno how it interacts with various empowered effects)

speaking of spear aoe. didnt cyclone get pretty buffed?

you’re not going after squishes if you’re frontlining a war…? Not that I did amazing by any means stats wise as I was damage support 50/150/300 heavy, I was dealing pretty fair damage for being extremely tanky.

The main objective was CC and rend, dishing out okay damage in the clump to specific targets worked out okay.

I’d much rather be a GA/WH frontline, but you know, it’s a decent damage support build.

There’s not many frontline viable damage supports to my knowledge so I’d class it pretty high below BB/IG. Though, BB/IG isn’t TYPICALLY on the frontline at all times.