When you add pvp arenas it needs to be normalized [poll inside]

Well designed competitive scenes are a fickle thing.

You can absolutely keep vertical progression AND support short competitive matches, and you don’t even need to normalize stats to do so. However, there is a fundamental requirement that involves two buzz words you’ll hear sprinkled about these discussions:

Skill-Cap (or ceiling) and Skill-Expression. These two qualities are found in basically any competitive game from Fighting Games to MOBAs, and even some FPS.

Skill-Cap

Skill-cap is largely what my old post is about- A system that rewards any player regardless of gear level based on how well they aim, time their attacks, and position their characters. While we often throw out the term skill, it really boils down to knowledge and the intelligence to apply that knowledge on the fly. A game like this has minimal mechanical requirements; You’re not expected to play Bach’s Fugue in D minor on your keyboard to control your character and make them do things. An example of this would be if we played each other in a fighting game, one that I’ve mastered and you have entry level knowledge of, it wouldn’t matter if I quadrupled your character’s HP and Damage because you ultimately would have little idea what you’re doing and the skill-cap for those games is very high. Now imagine if you’ve got four times the damage and life than me in New World; It would be a slaughter and I doubt I’d come close, even if I played perfectly, because there are very few ways for me to interact with the combat. I might be able to survive a bit with the right weapons and good dodging, but it would still ultimately end the same unless you’re just really REALLY bad. New World has a fairly low skill-cap. There’s almost no counter-play potential and so it ends up being a simple numbers game. Don’t get me wrong, there are some players who will lose no matter how good their gear is, those are outliers, we’re focusing on the people that would fall under a normal distribution, at which point gear and build is going to matter more than player-skill.

Skill-Expression

Skill-Expression, aka the anti-meta- I think is also something that New World needs more of. You can look at most any player, see their weapons, and know what skills they have and what gear they’d be using because there’s pretty clearly defined disparities in power between skills and talents.

Skill-Expression would mean two players picking the same weapons, with wildly different play styles and builds, and being equally successful in their own right. This would require heavy retooling of the weapons and all of the weapon’s abilities so that they’re useful for different reasons as well as the addition of a robust and varied list of perks available for gear to highlight different skills in different ways. I’m happy to provide examples of those as well if you’d like.

If you took the time to read those, thanks! You’d notice I made no mention of equalizing stats or normalizing damage, or any such thing. Vertical progression can absolutely exist in a competitively designed combat system and New World could absolutely support that if they chose too.

Personally, I think the PvP ship for New World has all but sailed with the refusal of Devs to address these fundamental aspects of competitive gameplay. At this point I’d rather just see them focus on delivering a really polished and CHALLENGING PvE experience rather than just more grinds. PvP will never be this game’s selling point without a system that supports competitive play.

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The majority doesn’t want your 1000+ hr grind to NOT matter.

But if the game tells returning and future players, that they need to grind for several hundred hrs before they can have any fun in PvP, then a HUGE amount of players will never play the game.

What most people want, is to reduce the enourmous gap there currently is.
Even if the GS was equalized, the perks and and the experience would provide “old” players with a significant advantage.

The game only survives if its financially sustainable.

Stop acting like you want your no-life playstyle to result in a pure dominance that means that all casual players basically shouldn’t have any fun.

Right now there is a valid problem - Hopefully they address it soon.

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I think the ironic part about suggestions like this is that often times when a player is so far behind in gear, they don’t have any skill either. On comes the next excuse…

You contradicted yourself in your first paragraph.

“People who invest their time in gear and developing their player skill to high levels” …

If you have developed your player skill, then you shouldn’t need a gear advantage to win in PvP. Further, you did not get your gear from being good at PvP – or good at anything, really. You did it by participating. There is no skill required to get the best gear in the game. Just either hours played or buying them after PvEing a bunch.

The whole point of PvP is to determine who has developed their player skills to the highest level. Gear is an extra variable that detracts from that goal.

If only the best players had the best gear, you could kind of have an argument. Since this is not the case, you are just trying to rationalize why you think hours played should substitute for actual skill. It’s silly.

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New World was a PvP-centric game. The fact that it failed doesn’t change that.

Also big rofl at your disingenuous prattling on over defining a competitive game as having a professional competitive scene, as if competition can’t exist without money being involved.

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I wasn’t making the distinction. I was asking for what they meant by competitive scene. It was their term, not mine. Usually competitive scene means a professional scene and I was genuinely wondering what mmorpg had a competitive scene. Apparently none as far as I can tell.

I’ve been playing new world since 1st beta and it’s pretty much the same as it was back then in regards to pve versus pvp balance. Seems like if you are hung up on a really early version of new world that was more pvp centric even dating back to pre-beta, then you are only looking for disappointment if you think it will ever be like that. Just being real.

The entire issue would honestly be fixed if they fixed the desync and combat system. And removed useless crafting perks from the perk pool. Even if combat is not equalized new people can easily get good gear without grinding 2k hours.

That would mean good gear + good skills win win.

Bad gear + good skills win lose

bad gear + bad skills lose lose.

good gear + bad skills lose win (Added since @Halcyon asked me to clarify).

So people with good gear but bad skills will win sometimes but only when the skill difference is not high enough.

Also once the crafting fix is done getting gear is easier.

Which is more balanced. Equalized pvp would be bad if you ask me.

Its like saying hard work doesn’t matter only talent does. And ur trying for a system that only rewards talent and not hard work.

U should be able to get full bis set in 500k gold. Not 5 million gold that we need to spend now. If your making a gold cap of 500k then make the crafting system more optimized. Remove shit perks like ward and skinning luck from the perk pool. U have craftable dungeon gear. Make it such that only that gives ward attributes. Regular gear should be more pvp focused.

Also, there are 3 PVP sets heavy medium, and light that can be farmed from just doing pvp. Its not bis but close to it. So yes I would say the current arena system can work provided the fix crafting.

Now people only need a couple of hundred hours to get good gear. Not 1000s.

The normalization is a bad idea since this game is a level and work based system. Its not cs:go. Stop trying to make it like that. Play cs: go if u want a system like that.

Getting good gear and proper builds that work together is a part of skill. Knowing the right combinations of perks and how to maximise your build is a skill.

Stop comparing this game with other games. And people who are complaining that pvp should be only skill-based are missing the whole point of learning how and which perks complement each other. How the system works.

If pvp was the same regardless of gear then the whole point of crafting and currency goes out the window.

People will pvp for a few days till they get bored and leave. Game will die. Currently there is a race to get the best gear and be the best in PVP. Its making the system move. Just because you are lazy to make money you are asking for equalized pvp.

I agree the system is broken and grinding gear needs too much time. But if that is fixed you don’t need equalized pvp.

Also if you cannot grind for 200-300 hrs for a game to get good gear you are not a gamer. Simple as that.

The current 1000-2000 hrs grind is shit 100% agreed. AGS needs to fix that.

My suggestion was

1: Remove skinning luck mining luck etc from the perk pool of crafting. There are skinner miner etc sets. Why the hell do we need those stupid perks on crafted armor. Make those sets have value and remove the shit perks from perk pool.

Step 2: Make crafted dungeon gear have ward by default. For eg genesis crafts will give you angry earth ward gear etc.
Remove ward from crafting perk pool as well.

Step 3: Remove the durability perk. No one uses it its not needed.

Thats all there is to do. The perk pool is now much cleaner and you get good legendary items as well as bis items on a regular scale.

Bis set ready in 500k or less.

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This is all they need to do

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You forgot one:

Good gear + bad skills = ???

And that, I believe, is the spirit of this thread. Where does Good gear + Bad skills fit into that hierarchy?

If it’s above Bad gear + good skills, then no one will come to the game for the PvP. If it’s below Bad gear + good skills, the PvE mafia that largely represents the current player base will cry that all their work is for “nothing”, since they don’t understand that their own skill as a player is something that can absolutely be developed.

AGS refuses to discuss this kind of topic because they don’t want to risk saying something and alienating either crowd, so they keep quiet and hope the mystery is enough to get people to engage in it.

Realistically, they’ll maintain a gear > skill model, because it appeases their current base, and the current base can then make claims that they won because of their “skill”, which will be nearly impossible to prove or disprove without information. People might hear this and be attracted to try the game, and be well beyond their refund period by the time they learn the truth.

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This is where your argument falls flat.

You are assuming that you have to win to have fun.

An even playing field doesn’t make something fun, it just makes it even.
People can and do enjoy themselves while not winning, and personal growth is actually enjoyable to a lot of people. Seeing themselves get better is fun.

Getting a “win” you didn’t earn is only “fun” for sociopathic children who expect everything handed to them, and only in the sense that “not winning” would be unfun for them.

Its relatively more fun than losing, but only for people who are losers at a very deep level.

This whole thread/argument seems to hinge on assumptions that just aren’t very good…

Like the one where gear and skill are somehow mutually exclusive and a bunch of people are running around with 1000 hours worth of gear investment that didn’t learn to play the game in that 1000 hours.

People can be better or worse than others in terms of personal skill, but assuming that a player with 1000 hours in the game will somehow lose to a newbie if the newbie had “equal gear” is just insane.

For those people who spent 1000 hours improving their gear just to have it not matter at all, I can tell you that this would be UNFUN. Any change that negates our investment into the game and doesnt respect our time is a stupid unfun change when the vast majority of the gameplay in this game is time spent getting better gear in one way or the other.

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You are completely wrong.

Most people dont find PvP fun when you deal 50% less DMG as your opponent and takes 50% more DMG from each hit.

Even playing frield DOES make the game more fun for the majority, as winning is part of having fun to most people.

You don’t have to win most of the time, but a fresh GS 500 player vs a GS 625 player would end up with 90% wins to the high GS player - Which is demotivating.

No one should be required to grind for a very long time to being able to compete - And if that is the way the game decides to do it, then it pushes away tons of potential players.

But hey - Keep defending your own position so that you can destroy all the new future players and feel good about yourself.

What we are talking about is not equalizing/normalized, at least not me - Its catch up mechanics.

If you seriously want new players to grind for 6 months, just as you did, to be strong and competitive - Then AGS should just shut down the game right now, cause that is a weird mentality to have, and it would hurt the game.

Letting others have fun and compete doesn’t take anything away from your achievements!
In fact it gives you fair competition, which should be encouraged.
(Unless you prefer just to win all the time yourself - Which contradicts your arguement bigtime)

No one should be required to grind for a very long time to being able to compete - And if that is the way the game decides to do it, then it pushes away tons of potential players.

No troll but why playing this kind of MMORPG then ?
It’s clearlly more you grind, more powerfull you are.

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Because players might like the overall gameplay…
The combat, the expeditions, the PvP, crafting, etc.

If a game only allows the most active and the long-term players to compete combat-wise, then your put heavy restrictions on the growth of your playerbase.

What most people are asking for is not to have the same power as those who put in a lot of hrs.
But as mentioned before, the gap is huge atm, and if it continues like that there wont be many players in the long run to have fun with.

People shouldnt be selfish and protect their own strength - They should welcome initiatives that provides a larger playerbase, as that is the only thing that will make NW survive in the long run.

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@manchini73

I’m sorry, but today’s gamers at large just don’t support the type of PvP you are defending. Here is the harsh truth of the matter. As long as New World supports PvP where RNG PvE gear overtakes skill. New World’s PvP has no future. That was taken the moment other gaming companies decided to cater to the mainstream PvPers.(Which are numbered in the millions)

PvPers want to PvP not PvE for hundreds if not thousands of hours. Hoping to “earn” enough gear to be a factor. No, They will simply just continue acting like New World don’t exist. And stick to their PvP MMOs and games, that allows for Skill-based PvP. I mean the Steam charts proves this day in and day out. Since AGS decided to gate PvP behind hundreds if not thousands of hours of PvE.

Them’s the harsh facts. EitherAGS put the PvP scene on maintenance mode. Then focus on the rapid deployment of meaning PvE content. Or AGS deploy one or two equalized PvP venues. For up and coming players to enjoy PvP without being fodder for untold hours. Or AGS continue on course and watch the player counts drop below 5,000 concurrent players.

The past 7 years have proven. That RNG PvE Gear-based PvP venues lose all but the top 1% of players really quick. Why pursue at foolhardy at best path. Exclusivity, just make the game that, exclusivity to only the dirtiest of PvE try hards. Imagine all of the dupes and exploits if PvP in New World was skill over gear. On that note, I rest my case!

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I edited my answer to clarify my point buddy. You also make a lot of valid points

As I mentioned in my post there is a easy fix. Fix the damn crafting system. Remove shit perks from perk pools.

That’s all that needs to be done. The 2000 hr grind becomes 200-300 hrs directly.

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@Noobs2pro I’ll ask you two questions. Why do you think the most successful Korean MMO in the West. Only gate their competitive PvP scene behind a at most 6 hour grind. With completely selective builds and stat choices. Why are games and MMOs, that host competitive skill based PvP scenes. Doing massively better than their RNG PvE gear to Win counterparts. Please answer those two questions for me. Thank you!

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You just used a lot of words to say, “people who play more DESERVE to win against people who don’t.”

And we’re the sociopaths who want things handed to us? Lulz

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What are you talking about? If I spend more time doing a ridiculously easy thing such as beating on a giant immobile stone man, I deserve to easily beat you in the Arena and any other form of PvP. That is my definition of competition. If you choose not to compete with me by refusing to spend hours doing the same mindless grind, that is on you and you deserve to lose to me.

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Ans to 1st question :
Cause there are some people who do not like to grind at all. Like they want to play games like cs go. Which is matchmaking based and they just want to fight and win purely based on skill.

I respect that wholeheartedly and its a very good model. But new world is not that game. New world is game based on skills + gear. Not one of the two.

There are many people who like systems like that. They want to grind and get good gear. They want to be better with hard work and grinding and not just skills. This game is catering to those people. Their entire money and shitty crafting system clarifies that part abundantly clear I feel.

2nd question ) Cause they are more entertaining and faster-paced then the rng counterparts. People in 2022 don’t have time and don’t want to waste time doing repeated farming which I also understand. Thus my suggestion to lower the grind to 200 hrs and not 2000hrs. Not to mention the fact that there is a lot of money and marketing involved when it comes to PVP only games. They were made precisely for that reason.

new world was not made with a competitive pvp scene in mind. That was never the goal of AGS. Otherwise there would be leaderboards right from the start. Arenas right from the start.

You are comparing two games with 2 completely different target systems and audiences.

I get your point maybe new world PVP only mode would have been a really fun game. But it would not cater to the majority of the casual players who are playing the game to chill and have a fun time with friends.

New world was never made for a competitive scene. Sadly that’s the truth. I know many people wish it was. But its not. Not to mention the spahegtti code and lag.

Also thanks for being civil while quoting me. I was sure sum1 would do raging anger rant.

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