Why a mainly PvE mindset has litte to offer

My beef with PvP is that it has no long term sustainability as a system. Higher levels always win because their numbers are always bigger (stats, equipment, buffs). RPGs become less about skill as these numbers get bigger.

People like PvE and Non-RPG PvP BECAUSE they have balancing mechanics to make skill more viable than just numbers. If PvP was skill based at all levels with stat gains being fixed, you’d have a lot more flaggers at low level trying to match higher levels through sheer skill alone rather than just a fixation on PvP.

PvE has set areas to find certain enemies so it’s not like you’ll randomly be stat outmatched by a wandering lv60 mob that insta kills you due to stat difference.

That’s just me. I prefer FPS based PvP where skill (And weapon load outs) are more prominent that just pure numbers. In RPGs, PvE is where its at. It’s nice that the game is action based too. Could try soloing raid/world bosses if they ever allow it.

I think this OP illustrates perfectly why trying to combine PVP and PVE in one game in equal parts is a horrible idea. The difference between the two mentalities is so vast that it is basically impossible to bridge.

The only thing I will say is that be careful what you wiah for. You are right, there are much better PVE MMOs than NW (and yes, FF14 is an amazing MMO no matter what you think that has 2.6 mln active and is going from strength to strength) so if pve players do indeed leave for those “tea shops” as you called them, NW ceases to exist (being b2p game and all).

dude, i play non-pvp rpgs as well, i get it. the point is, the purists on both sides are being childish, NOT WHY they play whichever.

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Is this a serious question?
Map control, bonuses, taxes, company logos on the map. It’s old school world conquest every time I’ve seen how PvP works in MMOs. There is much to compete for.

I laid down my PvP mania after over 9 years in 2012.

Especially unorganized random pvp is a breeding ground for aggression and toxic behavior. I was fully into it too. This also applies to all genres, not just MMORPG.

Toxic behavior occurs when you mix enthusiastic and informed PvP veterans with randoms who are uninformed and/or less experienced and/or less skilled. Such mixing is also not purposeful, since the outcome of such a fight is also completely random. It is the worst way for PvP veterans to achieve any goals or improve.

Only organized and structured PvP, where only like-minded people meet, is purposeful. Unfortunately, as the history of mainstream MMORPGS shows us, there was and is no sufficient community for this.

FF14 is a fantastic game,

because

It said “fuck you” to a large demographic of consumers, that game specializes in something, it’s not trying so much to do everything and please every group.
Anyone who genuinely enjoys being competitive will scoff and laugh at the game, that’s fine and their opinion is largely correct, the game isn’t designed at all to please everyone.

NW ceasing to exist is quite the statement, again, I feel you are yet another person in this thread with a closed mind and a certain arrogance about how mmo’s should be and what they need to do to survive.
We’re not talking about destroying PvE, we’re simply talking about why PvE only players damn right refuse to participate in a rather large portion of NW’s end game content which involves PvP and all I hear is crap like due to ineptness or I believe the game isn’t balanced.

League of Legends is the most popular game still in existence (discard minecraft christ…), the game is only PvP and there are many other examples of popular PvP games, Fortnite trended for a year or so non stop in America, the bubbles and closed minded ideas that you are protecting in this “sacred genre” are all in an attempt to stop it about being any pvp content so you can just simply have an online CHAT ROOM while you play, pleasantly and in comfort.

You are the minority trying to protect yourselves, you don’t see the error of your ways, especially when you are blind to see that having a flag system that you never even need to touch limits the game, that would be me loading up a game of LoL and I find out 3 of my enemies have opted out of PvP and the game will close in 5 min.

FF14 has 2.6 min active? You do realise the lack of mmo competition on the playstation consoles? Hardly a fair statistic to work from. If I gave 1 million or over of those kids stuck on a playstation a good PC, they’d probably not be playing that game.

Toxic behavior occurs when you mix enthusiastic and informed PvP veterans with randoms who are uninformed and/or less experienced and/or less skilled. Such mixing is also not purposeful, since the outcome of such a fight is also completely random. It is the worst way for PvP veterans to achieve any goals or improve.

Completely random? Post again on this thread and try and make some sense.

plus the “mainstream” (western) of mmo’s never tried, you know what the west likes to do, give you lots and lots of made up content because you are guaranteed to buy it, paying sub and expansion for largely a content experience you could have been satisfied with on a regular console game, truly baffling.

They are easy to complete, enticing non gamer’s because that makes more money and bigger numbers, they don’t care about the quality of the game one bit.

My beef with PvP is that it has no long term sustainability as a system

Wait so people come on and off those mainstream western rpg’s waiting for expansions and that is a “sustainable system”? More like bleeding a sucker dry system to me.

PvP you choose your fights carefully or you disengage, you’ve basically highlighted your whole premise on the matter as people don’t enjoy being “bullied” or outmuscled on some occasions, people are smarter than you think and a large demographic of people like living in a higher action player driven environment.

Ofc you can show me the numbers of wow, gw2 and ff14 playerbase, which involve a lot of people who no real gaming experience prior, just experiences meant to be a safe haven, are these the pinnacles of the genre?

I just don’t get it want you want. In your Opinion PvE has little to offer and this is totally fine. But you don’t have to try to convert us or try to open our eyes. This is the so called “toxic behaviour of PvP-Fanatics”. Our eyes are open and so are the eyes of all the major publishers except AGS. I have played PvP on an extreme level for years and I came to the conclusion that it will never work out properly. No I have absolutely no interest in PvP anymore, because I start to get angry pretty fast, because I have issues to play PvP with random plebs. To put it in your words: PvP in mainstream MMORPG is not suitable for the target group in the western market.

You mean another player you can gank and beat up to satisfying your ego.
Got ya.

Let people enjoy the game how they want and stop trying to force people into a activities they don’t wanna do.

Don’t like it then go play another game that meets your critera or make your own game.

EDIT: FYI I’ll probably pvp when I want to and on my terms. Most likely outpost rush. I’ve tried open world and running pvp mission. Not fun. run down by zerg squads and exploiters. And running pvp missions was bland. Just people running in massive groups repeating the same 2 quests (not 3 as the third usually take too long for them) over and over with 0 pvp.

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Yes,

“I will gank someone that isn’t even lvl 60 yet, their lack of experience with the game gives me a maniacal sense of joy, I will enjoy murdering him, if I’m lucky he will message me and tell me I’m a twat and then he’ll leave the area, making me the victor. After a good few weeks of non stop playing I never see him again, it appears he’s left the game or taking a long break from it, I couldn’t contain my happiness at the thought of making a player quit, I unzipped my pants…”

look,

You have no idea what I’m talking about, barely anything in this game is competitive and barely anything forces players to do anything because the difficulty is forcefully set to “low as hell” yet you’ll have a stab at me for mentioning PvP…because you have some narrow minded skewed view of it ie ganking weaklings out of town and tea bagging them.

I’m not only in games for PvP, you thinking I’m some kind of monster/twat is just plain ignorance, go and chop tree’s and “better” the community by selling them in the marketplace with the rest of them, we’ll see how long this lasts.

My argument stems from the numbers system that has time-tested to be proved a failure everytime it is employed. I don’t have yo show you gw2, ff or wow. I just have to pull a list of dead mmorpgs.

Understand that the concept of PvP in mmorpgs is really good but to execute it requires something that most definitely isn’t compatible with the numbers game mmorpgs try to put out. That system is failing. People want to join an mmorpg to match their skills not their numbers.

There is no dynamic play in a numbers game, there is just a race to the end and after that it’s a who strikes first to win.

FPS are superior because everyone is on the same level. Everyone had the same weapon but with different load outs. Skill is your only determining factor yet at the same time, in fps games, people usually complain about campers, people who basically spawn kill others. Over the years however, I’ve seen some rather creative plays in dealing with those low skilled people and the fun had by them doing so.

Mmorpgs tho, you slap on the latest legendary gear and boom, you’re now unkillable because of your bug numbers. Action combat has helped, yes. But. They still need to deal with the imbalance a numbers system causes.

Using new world’s stat system (not function) as an example we have strength, dexterity, constitution, intelligence and focus. Increasing those stats provide bigger numbers for damage for specific weapons. You then have level based weapons which are level locked and faction tier locked in cases and provide even more numbers advantage. You also have legendary gear for an even more stupid numbers advantage. Where does it end?

If mmos were evolving, rather than numbers, the changes would be more towards a status effects type system where weapons deal damage but the effectiveness is handled by status effects rather than by raw numbers:
Strength: Influences the weapon weight class you may yield, eg: a weapon made from iron and one made from a near infinite density metal would require different strengths to yield.

Dexterity: Influences weapon stability such as when swinging a weapon, it won’t sway randomly mid-swing, when aiming a bow or musket, your breathing won’t jitter the sights too often, when cadting magic, the power won’t fluctuate as much

Consitution: Influences resistance to status effects. Like getting hit with poison won’t be as effective at 100 consitution vs 0 constitution.

Intelligence: Instead of increasing mana power, increase active spell forms number and tie it with focus stat to provide a chance of spell destabilising when more forms are used.

Focus: Should provide a bonus to maintaining stability of multiple spell forms and a small snap effect when trying to target an enemy.

^^^ those are just ideas and those ideas only work if the numbers system is removed.

Perfect World tried to have a strength requirement for higher level equipment but I won’t say it didn’t work, it was just limiting in that it forced strength into being a requirement rather than a choice.

Not everything that is heavier is always better. Fantasy is fantasy, enchantments should exist which lighten the weapon and provide effects like fire on a war hammer for a burning smash or something like that.

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All them words and nothing useful said.

You do know EVERYONE can go to the townhall and take a look at the weekly cost for maintaining the city and the weeköy income from taxes?

So far EVERY town makes more income that paying for maintainance. I guess that money goes into the pockets of the governing company, from which they pay for upgrades for.

So if you are governing a town and your tax income is not enough for keeping the town maintained, maybe you should leave governing to someone who is capable of doing it. Maybe you should ask some of those PVE players for advise how to do it right.

Until they implement the shared auction houses, not every zone is making the profit they need. That’s why they’re doing it in the first place. No ones gonna go to Mourningdale to use the market while Everfall and Windsward exist. It’s not a management issue, it’s an economics issue that the devs activity acknowledged and have a fix for.

And taking away a good part of the economics in the process. Because you could make big monies by looking which items are cheap where to buy and where to sell those for a good profit (sometimes a couple of hundreds of times more).

But yes, it solves the problem satellite places have.

But that all does NOT make PvP players the top of the “most useful” list of players. This game was originally planned as a PvP always on full loot title and got changed. For a reason. So stop talking down on other players as being parasites. Because the whole system is symbiotic. Simply because of the FACT that without PvE players there wouldn’t be a game for you to play. And that is comming from someone that favored the PvP content in earlier MMOs over the PvE content for almost two dacades.

So get of your high horse. You are not more valuable than other players.

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I 100% agree dude, I am selfish…

I play the game in a way that doesn’t belittle other people, in a way that doesn’t use exploits to harm the core game mechanics, in a way that frankly only offers me pleasure and no one else.

Behold “The Selfish NPC!” A player who shall not engage in selfless acts of exploiting others and refusing to “enjoy” the end game activities in a toxic pool of negativity!

Shame on the Selfish NPC…

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How about read? Parasitic design is a gaming design. It does not mean people are parasites.

Seriously some of you are looking for shit to be buttmad over. Read what was said instead of taking an immediate offense.

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I will admit it took me reading a few of your posts over the last couple of days to see what you meant and that you did not mean it as an insult.

I have read. And you sound like someone thinking who is i a position the rate other people favorite playstyle by downing it.

And no, its not a parasite system as they contribute all to it. If you would take out PvP players from the game the system will still work as PvE players will do wars too. A mainly PvE player that doesn’t flag all the time does NOT mean he doesn’t PvP at all. Its not all black and white. And there are certainly companies owning towns with members that never flag for PvP beside PvP quests, doing OPR and wars. There is no way to play the game and all options by exclusively favoring one side over the other.

And as many have said before: they tested the “only PvP” way and it didn’t work out. They changed it for a reason. And that reason was: that system would not generate any positive player number to justify the cost of making and maintaining this game.

Now we cleared that, would you get of your high horse?