Why a mainly PvE mindset has litte to offer

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#44

What qualifies as the genre is a great talking point, especially for the west, as they only see numbers as success.

Based off that logic I think we should move over to some stellar mobile games!

I was brought up in flames, banter and warfare from the age of 15 with a 56k modem playing Legend of Mir 2, I don’t expect people to understand aspects that make for a real massive player experience barely playing the game on any competitive levels (not just PvP, economy and reliance of party/guiild in outdoor PvE in a PvP enviroment, no instances or queues)…
and then jumping on reddit and making a very pleasent meme post or talking about how the community is like a fresh breeze on a summers day.

#45

Translation ‘I’m older, I don’t have a real answer, here’s some blather. Also; get off my lawn’

You did not tell me why your (wrong) opinion on what qualifies as an MMO should trump the real definition of the genre.
All you gave me is gatekeeping bullshit.

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#46

As someone who’s been into MMORPG PvP for +20 years, MMORPG PvP isn’t competitive and it will never be that. Except if it is controlled environment like Arenas.

This isn’t a PvE vs PvP player issue, this is purely an issue with the game itself. I don’t know if you’ve been following the game for the past 2 years, but they are totally catering for more PvE centric players now. You can toggle the PvP on and off, the game has linear questing, it has dungeons. These things wouldn’t be needed if the game was catering towards PvP players.

I would argue you could swap all the players with AI and you probably couldn’t see the difference. Nothing really matters in this game in terms of player politics. The whole faction system is just slapped on top of a broken game and has really no meaning at all.

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#47

But my guild leader and us hold Windsward and Cutlass and we’ve distinguished groups, strategies, focus points, are you saying these aspects are useless in the control of these territories and the faction could of just winged it? who is then decided on who profits?

Simple questing is an aid and for some an introduction into the game that helps players warm into the game mechnically and tactically, like in Lineage 2 you would get an AoE or a kite group to deal with mobs for optimal lvling experience (we would debate on types of DD’s needed very often and their quality), we have to organise a healer, or 2 and a tank if the mobs are too hard etc. Obviously that game had a steep lvl requirement to be relevant for end game PvP, which I don’t agree with really.

So I’m to assume your mmo experiences are strictly from western development @theNILV ?

#48

This argument makes no sense. PVE in no way hurts PVP play, so why care about it. That goes for PVP as well, doesn’t hurt PVE play.

If PVP was so good, and so loved, you wouldn’t post a subject like this, because PVP players would overwhelm the game. You wouldn’t basically be begging for players to be PVP.

PVP is toxic, and has always been toxic in every mmo. Main reason is, it’s not fairly balanced. There will always be gamers with the best gear, killing players with crap gear, over, and over again. PVP’ers love the game as long as they are the ones winning the fight, but when that stops happening, they start whining, and raging. The game environment turns to crap.

New World was original a PVP only game, but it repeatedly became so toxic, that Amazon had to revamp the game, and bring PVE into the game.

Personally, the only way to get something as a fair PVP system in a MMO, is once you turn on your PVP flag, your character has the same set of equipment as everyone else. The only difference would be the weapon, and your skill at fighting. That would be the only way to make PVP remotely fair, and even then it will probably turn toxic.

PVE players get the thrill of the fight from the mobs in the game. They don’t need PVP, that’s usually unfair. EverQuest did PVE right. You never felt the need for PVP combat, because the mobs in EQ were more than enough challenge, and the whole game was made to push you to group, and work with others.

How many people actually talk to others in New World. How many people group up, and rarely say a word, and the moment the group content is done, leave the group, again, without a word.

The combat in New World is too simple. There is nothing that really forces players to really work together like EQ does. Actually, only EQ has ever truly made players want to group, and work together. If the players didn’t do their role in the group, the group would wipe.

New World is more a free for all. Where everyone just attacks the mob as fast as they can, with little thought to anything else. Very little strategy is involved in New World.

There are no real mob pull mechanics. No real CC. For a Active Combat System, the combat is unintelligent, with systems in place to limit the players ability to block, or retreat. Literally forcing you into a position, where you get hit, because the AI is so limited, that they have to cripple combat to have the mobs have a chance to win. Like having mobs have no reaction to your best skills, just because they are supposedly stronger mobs. Allowing the mob to walk right through your attacks, and hit you while your still in combat animation, and not allowing you to block in that state.

Tera Online did Active Combat really well. It kept the players coming back again and again, but they took away most of the rpg elements of the game, and made it too easy. That’s why happens when you make a game that mainly targets casual players, one’s that whine when they face the slightest challenge that they can’t best on the first try.

Tera was great, you could solo group combat, if you had the skill to block, and dodge. It would take you 30mins to fight a boss mob, where you have to constantly block and dodge. A real knock down, drag out fight, but when you won, you got group experience, and rewards, basically rewarding you for your effort , actually making it worth your time, and hard won effort to win.

If New World would fix their combat mechanics, then the replay value would go way up. Combat mechanics are the life blood of any mmo. If they are poor, players will get bored, and leave the game.

But, maybe that’s what Amazon wants. Why make a MMO, that supposedly has a 10 year road map, while at the same time, making it possible to lvl to lvl 60 in a few days, and maxing all tradeskills so quickly. Making it so easy, that most of the population will likely not need anyone else for player gear, because they can just make it themselves.

I would say, that many people will have maxed out their character, and tradeskills in around 3 months, and that’s not playing tons of hours everyday. Players that play 16+ hours a day, will burn through this game in a month, and will run out of things to do.

$40 for this game is good. It’s a beautiful game, but they could have just made it a solo game, and it would probably be the best solo rpg ever made.

I think Amazon should take a few of the less populated servers they plan to merge, and make a hardcore version of the game for PVE. Fix the combat, and make it less about lvl, and more about player skills. What’s the point of having lvls, when you can hit lvl cap in no time. MMO’s are supposed to take years to master, not hours.

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#49

@iceblast
A lot of your points are great, that’s partly the reason why I’m trying to get people who only think of the PvE and questing aspects on the side that would benefit the addictive aspects that make an mmo rather than “ok, completed WoW and FF14 for now, until next expansion!..”.
I’m just trying to get the whole premise about what NW is lacking directed at systems that are
Every skill max and plenty of drops is the bummer for me defo, it’s taken the life out of reliance which is a main system usually, I deem it as a straight out failure, the AH is more about lucky finds furniture than gear.

I feel UO (taming skill+) and BDO make for the best solo experience mmo’s (well, tick off BDO if you didn’t have a wallet xD), you didn’t really need anyone but it gets the blood flowing and it can help in certain instances.

#50

You must be new to gaming.

What value does a pvper like you bring to a PVE players game experience thats so valuable? Amazon is a crappy game studio but even they learned quick enough it’s the PVE crowd that will give a game a long shelf life.

No one is required to compete with you and your friends, get it?

FFXI is still around after 20 years even though it’s one expensive game to subscribe to and the pvp there is non-existent

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#51

yes the factions are completely useless, you could remove them from the game and just let guilds control the territories. Most of the PvE players don’t even care who owns the territories at this point, as long as it’s their own faction. That way the territories would be far more meaningful to the players. You bring Lineage 2 as an example, who owns the castles in that game? It could be exactly the same system in the New World. This isn’t simple questing though in New World, The linear quest line goes from lvl1 all the way to lvl60, and I’m sure if they had more time. It would have more stuff like story and cutscenes.

I’ve played most of the MMORPGs, but to me only the Korean ones stuck with me. I pretty much spent +7 years playing Lineage 2.

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#52

UO had the great advantage that no one had another option. But part of what made UO great was that both players existed in the same worlds with the same rule set. Both PvE and PvP contribute to a great game, even the dreaded Pk can contribute by providing a villain.

The challenge has been to find a way for everyone to be satisfied. Too many destroyers and not enough builders is not a good MMO.

The PvE mindset is toxic to PvP when they demand level and gear grinds, that destroys the ability to have balanced playing fields.

The PvP mindset is toxic to PvE when they demand consequences to losing fights and force their play style on others through undesired attacks.

I feel both are competitive in their own way, with the ability to have positive interactions.

I think a good MMO needs both. But the way MMO have progressed has been destructive to one or the other play style. Because MMO have not really progressed, we never had a UO/AC/Shadowbane 2.0 we ended up with Everquest clone grind mechanics in dumbed-down games.

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#53

I loved Ultima Online, but can’t get on your level at all.
I’d prefer a system like in UO, instead of an always on PvP flag. In a RPG setting it turns 99% of the players into some psychotic mess. Kill kill kill kill.
Do something bad you’ll either turn grey or red. Grey is free to attack, but makes you free to attack. Red is free to attack regardless.
I don’t really care about the factions (none fit my taste and I actually do the rpg part) and I might bother with companies later, as long it wont be a tryhard club.

But anyhow ofcourse PvE mindset matters. If it doesn’t, they shouldve made yet-another-3vs3-shooter. Or is it 5vs5 now? I can’t care about those games.
PvP mindsets matter far less in a RPG game, seeing they ignore the roleplay part, or don’t realize their characters are psychotic murderers.
I am not a “for teh win” gamer and generally these players are PvP’ers. Listening to those people will make a terrible game for me.

I think it’s perfectly possible to mix PvE and PvP, as long you don’t listen to players, who just like the one.

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#54

Well as I did state in my thread I love UO for the PvE side of it but UO was rich, there were many different builds, many different ways to make money, you could create a sell shop and actually be known, no marketplace crap that spoils a lot of what could be beautiful player interaction and it was just simple a joy all around to be getting on with things. Farming 120 scrolls with my small band of allies in PvP was pretty cool, obviously it was hard going because the PvPer’s were spec’d only for PvP, it needed some rethinking but you could out muscle them, especially them camping the port out lol.

NW to me and it’s potential is like Lineage 2 and League of Legends slapped together, we’ve got rather simple skillset systems but with complexity of aim, stamina and weapon swap and then we have a lot of wars going on, which I really want encouraged a bit more in the outdoor world like L2 was, there’s a lot of hidden joy that can come out of rivaleries which I think NW could do it it tried harder.
Outpost Rush I don’t agree with it always taking players out of the open world but I’m happy for that to succeed with revision, it can bring an addictive element to it much like a moba and it’s just cool to have a pvp party without it meaning the loss of something important obviously.

Mixing PvE and PvP in both extremes…I really don’t agree, it’s like politics right now, we co-exist but we don’t actually work with one another, imo, development time is completely wasted if both are worked on equally.
I want there to be almost 2000 people on my server after the same reletive conclusions, what interest does it server to have 500 people, labelled as “hardcore pvp’ers + grinders” and the rest are dropping by every so often for expansions and essentially being seen as worker ants that make it so you have to farm less iron ore or something else to buy from the marketplace, it’s just there for the sake of it, why can’t the quality of the game be improved in a direction that works pretty well for both, to a degree…(couldn’t give a crap about super casual players like that just drop by for expansions like they’re bored).

It being divided into 2 groups, just why, why aren’t the roleplayers or people after rich PvE and story not going to a company that really cared for them, you can’t honestly say that NW cares for them, it would be ludicrous to think like that, the PvP wars and the class system and mechanics make it clear that PvP is at the forefront.

#55

What OP is missing is that PVP and PVE are like religion, some believe in god, some not, some don’t care. And no matter what argument you might find, you won’t be able to change their mind.
That bring me to the golden age of MMOs, Ragnarok Online. A game where everyone, PVP and PVE crowd would grind the entire week just to get on the weekend on the War Of Emperium, a pure GVG with 5 more guilds fighting an entire hour for a single castle. And there were the instanced arenas. Despite all of that, game had both pve and pvp, where both styles were beneficial to everyone, and aside one troll here and there for loosing a battle, was an open world PVE, with casual duels happening all around at any given moment, a game by the way still played today worldwide. Back there no one jumped on forum to complain why a pve player don’t play pvp, they would complain of many other things but that.
Fast fowarding to 2021 the biggest contribution pvp gave to gaming community was the hatred, not because pve player doesn’t joined their game style, but because was massively imposed for short minded management over the years (read here Aion, GW2, Eve Online, BDO, etc), and then PVP players, always a minority got used to it. You can google “MMO without forced PVP” and you will find months, perhaps years of reading of unsatisfied people just wanting to enjoy a product without being bothered, asking for an option to be left alone and enjoy the game in their way, and yet regardless of how polite or rude this was asked, the response was always the same from pvp crowd, go play something else.
Then we got NW. Fact was supposed to be pvp centered yes, but somewhere in the middle of the road, someone did that google search and realised that there were much more people looking for a choice, to do things at their own pace and we got what we have today. PVE players can now opt out of any pvp activity, and for them this was outrageous, how can a pve player choose something?
So should I use your own words and ask you to play something else? No, I’ll go with, deal with it. I’m not owner of the truth and neither are you, you will need to face that people’s choices are their own, if is beneficial for them, is all that they need and not people saying “you’re playing wrong”.

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#56

The title, your post, your responses are fairly condescending.
I have a feeling that your arguments may be missed or misunderstood simply for the fact that the tone they are written in is a little bit more than annoying.

On another thread I responded to an ongoing discussion like this. One of my points was that one small part of the divide has to do with how each side views the other.

Many PvP’rs are convinced that deep inside everyone loves PvP. If they would just admit that to themselves and try it out they would be convinvced.

Meanwhile the same number of PvE’rs think that PvP is a waste of time and energy. They don’t hold that PvP’rs are deep down secretly loathing PvP and should quit and just play PvE. Most of the one’s I know are fine with PvP’rs having their own game alongside the PvE game.

On occasion one or more of them will get disgruntled over some bonus or another that PvP’rs have for flagging. But most of the ones I’ve known over the years while they just don’t get why people would PvP they don’t think it should be absent or ignored by devs.

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#57

We ( PVP ) players bought a game that was advertised as a game that balance PVP and PVE. We knew exactly what we were buying and that is what are we asking for, a game that was advertised as such or else we would not buy game at all. On the other hand, PVE players also bought game knowing vary well that game is balanced between PVP and PVE and now asking for demolishing the PVP aspect of the game so they can play the game " the way I want it". This just proves that PVE players are selfish and spoiled.

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#58

Bullshit.
I have not seen a single PvE player ask for PvP to be removed or ‘demolished’. You’re just stomping into threads and pretending PvE players are ‘selfish’ while inventing bullshit lies as ‘proof’.

The PvP playerbase keeps wanting to force PvP on PvE players, yet you’re going to say PvE players are selfish for not wanting to get screwed up the a by level 60’s?
I mean, that’s what you MEAN, but you hid it behind a flat out lie about ‘wanting to demolish PvP’.

If anyone is selfish, it’s the PvP PKers looking to gank-squad and camp level 15s for funsies.
While lying (like you) about how evil PvE players are so they can pretend to be the victim.

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#59

I’ve only seen PVP asking to remove PVE, not the other way around. PVE couldn’t care less about PVP and what they are doing, it doesn’t really effect them. It’s the PVP crowd that’s whining, because they think PVP is the best, and the reason MMO’s are good, while having to beg people to play PVP… If PVP was so great, the last thing you would have to do would be to beg for more PVP players.

Most of the game by default is PVE. You actually have to have player volunteer to play PVP. PVE players don’t care what PVP players are doing, you don’t really effect them, so why would they want to remove PVP.

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#60

First and foremost there is no such thing as a PVE mindset. There is choice to play PVE and a choice to play PVP.
People have a choice and the choice is not set in stone; they can choose to flag or not to flag and sometimes they may enjoy some leveling PVE or gathering PVE and later flag up for some group PVP. Solo PVP is not viable due to the toxicity of the PVP group dynamic.
If you interact with the ‘starstone ore’ I post on the trading post then that is good enough for me.
Wars are not viable for many as many do not have the time or inclination to engage in the wars; just like there are soldiers in the field, there are people on the homefront who support them.
Your opinion is valid, though your conclusion is not. Everyone who plays New World paid for their game the same as you. Unless you want to reimburse every player who chooses not to PVP for not only the game cost but also the hours spent and progress lost then you should not demand others to change games.
I for one am enjoying myself and I am presently a 100% PVE player (in fact for rp reasons my character has not yet chosen a faction); I have been fortunate enough to find nice people to group with. I have no plan to quit the game in the near future because I am enjoying the game play.

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#61

Can you link any posts where those that choose PVE have specifically asked to have PVP removed from the game or ‘demolished’ as you so eloquently put it.

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#62

I think most pve players will move on from this game in good time. Since most gathering is basically without risk, anyone can get anything they need and there’s little value to stuff that’s gathered. Slightly more value to refined, but in time many players will have the necessary skill and gatherers/crafters will get bored. Gathering is way too easy in this game, nodes respawn so fast, it’s all really silly.

#63

Idk man I haven’t read through all the pvp vs pve threads but from what i’ve seen PvP Players are asking for things that would make their preferred playstyle more fun and engaging while the players that like PvE are just straight up insulting all PvP players.

I don’t see the problem here. Why is having more incentive to pvp bad? Besides every single pvp player being a sweaty, toxic piece of shit that need to stroke their ego and show how masculine they are etc etc etc.

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