Why Hardcore Full Loot PVP MMOs Fail

Darkfall had the best gameplay I’ve ever experienced, graphics were fine, aim to hit, watch some of the pvp videos and the naval combat it was exceptional.

They screwed up the rest of the game though and that’s why it failed:

Super grindy, when you were done playing you setup your character to afk swim all night, took a year to max your stats.

Rampant cheating for roughly the first year it was out, totally screws a full loot game. The devs could never react fast enough. There was a paid cheat program for like $10/mo specific to that game which thousands of players used for a year before they found a way to detect it and did a mass ban wave.

Lots of launch exploits that created massive imbalance between those that got to use them, and those that came after the nerfs. They never nerfed the players that exploited.

No safe area for new players to skill up, high level players would camp newbie areas griefing, dry looting, etc. even selective looting would be a fair compromise (take 1 item or even just resources/loot but not weapon/armor). A game of sheep and wolves needs sheep, you gotta treat your sheep right.

They also fell into the everyone does everything dilemma. Everyone hordes their resources to raise their own crafting skills, etc rather than dedicated crafters that buy resources from players and sell gear.

UO:
Ultima Online added insurance so you could keep your armor/weapons from being looted at the cost of losing gold when you died. Other items weren’t insurable, resources and loot, so you banked often. Some things were blessed and couldn’t be looted like your spell book, runebook, etc.

They had a mark spell and a recall spell where you could mark runestones with mark, then use recall to teleport to that location instantly. This allowed you to bank and be right back to where you were farming in a minute, there were ways to not get killed and looted, having a recall macro to a hotkey could avoid being murdered 95% of the time. If you didn’t have magery, you could carry a recall scroll (cheap, low level spell) and it allowed you to cast without having magery skill points.

UO didn’t send your body back to a spawn point, when you were killed you became a ghost at that location, respectable pks would rez you after murdering you and looting anything they wanted from your corpse, many would often open a portal so you could get back to town to re-gear if you were in a dungeon or the wilderness. The other funny thing was you could carry a trapped chest trapped by a tinker, as well as mislabeled runes, so you might have a rune saying “house” but it really led to a guarded area where the murderer would be instantly killed if they recalled to it, or they’d instantly die if they opened the trapped chest. Or you’d mark the rune to the middle of a dragon spawn where they’d instantly kill anyone who used that rune lol

Housing was anywhere a house would fit in the environment. Never seen that in another MMO, if you found a flat area near a dungeon, near a mining area, near anything of importance, you could place a house. If you were a murderer originally you couldn’t go into town, you had to base out of your house. You could play a whole lot of non combat roles in the game and have a ton of fun. Houses decayed over time, if a player didn’t return for 2 weeks the house would collapse but all the items in it would hit the ground, lootable by anyone there. This created entire guilds dedicated to fighting over fallen houses. Even as a solo you could create a character with stealth, sneak right through a crowd of people and drop the house before they did, sniping the spot out from under them as they’re grabbing loot. Was a blast and the most lucrative thing in game.

Murderers had disincentives, the entire game was risk vs reward, if you were killed and your bounty collected, you received 10% stat loss permanently!! If you died a few times you had to delete the character and re-roll because trying to skill back up as a red murderer would just lead to being killed by other players.

Darkfall gameplay with UO sandbox would be the most epic game created. Albion is barely better graphics than the original UO, still isometric, all people want is a 3d aim to hit pvp game.

The other part of the formula modern games screw up is 1 character does everything. With UO and the 5 characters and limit of 7 skills per character you’d have a dexxer (warrior), a crafter or gatherer, a mage, a tamer, maybe a pk murderer. Crafting was a lot harder to raise so most people did not bother making a blacksmith, carpenter, etc. and the people who did make a maxed crafter had a lot of demand from players, and they bought resources gathered by players, that was one of the easiest ways to get gold to jump start yourself on a new server, chopping trees or mining ore and selling to crafters in bulk. The economy was 1000x better than this game.

The 7 skill limitation created dozens of viable templates from the same set of skills, you had healer mage (bandages and magery), alchemy mage, tank mage (weapon + magery), poison mage (magery + poisoning skill), archer mage. And your stats varied depending on the build, a tank mage expended points to dexterity to increase swing speed while other builds maxed str and int.

For warriors there were pure weapon builds, there was a warrior + magery but it didn’t have enough skill points to add the intensify magery so their offensive spells were worthless but they could use utility spells as part of their gameplay (heal, teleport, invisibility spell, etc) along with bandages to heal, it was a really robust build but all their offensive damage was from a weapon. They could also spec poisoning and apply poison to weapons and play that style.

UO is still live running since 1997, but they never updated the graphics so its dead. I don’t see albion as an alternative because it’s the same issue of wanting 3d aim to hit like darkfall.

2 Likes

this is a false video made by someone who just wanted to ride the hype train to get views.

Majority of people are “below average” so this video is the same (hype wise) as if I made a vid saying “why most people hate their jobs and can’t afford a house” - I’d get millions of viewers.

PVP MMOs are great (Albion and Eve are doing great) - if not made by an indie company in their basement (sorry Mortal). Problem is - most large AAA companies are too scared to change and to take a risk to make a good full-loot MMO and its up to the little guys to fight the uphill battle.

Its the same as with the electric cars. They were here before gasoline, but were too “niche” and too “novelty”, plus all the huge corporations were so involved in the fossil fuels (read - PVE MMOs) that they blocked all the novel tech for almost 100 years. Until Tesla came around that is.

/thread

1 Like

See I see the pvp mmo’s as the boomers, the last of a slow to die era.

If not then we’d be all moving to that style of gameplay, but we’re not, quite the opposite.

so no, not /thread

2 Likes

did you hear that from some guy on the internet? Or god forbid - you are that guy!?!

Lol @ “Eve and Albion are doing great” - sure, depending on metric you use. By the “big” MMO standards they are doing pretty terrible.
PVP MMOs will always be niche, regardless of who makes them because you cannot force someone
to be your entertainment. Averahe player needs to win something 75% of encounters not to feel hopeless, this is possible against computer but not possible against other humans for everyone invovled.

UO existed because back then there was no choice - you have tons of choice now.

Your analogy with EVs is deeply flawed, because it wasn’t “big evil corporations” that prevented EVs from proliferating, it was luck of range. EVs were actually widely used in various applications where range is not an issue (marshalling, airport vehicles etc) and in fact the only segment where they were not popular was consumer vehicles. As soon as tech allowed for better range they caught on.

1 Like

Tell it to all the kids who play Fortnite, Apex, and Warzone - full loot PVP is very popular, perhaps the most popular type of gameplay of any. They just haven’t been given the opportunity to see it in a good AAA MMO, and in fact it is most likely because of aging players like the WoW playerbase - the “boomers” (gen X and older Millennials most likely - boomers don’t play games). Full loot doesn’t have to be hard on low skill casuals, it could have counterbalances built in like EVE and other games have had. Who that kind of gameplay is hard on is the fragile players who are easily frustrated probably IRL as well as in video games. So MMOs have been their “safe space” if you will away from the millions of “angry” “kids” who play the full loot PVP games.

One of the most funded games to date, perhaps the most funded, is a full loot PVP MMO. Star Citizen. It follows in the EVE tradition but takes it to the next level.

3 Likes

Albion online, Eve Online doing just fine with a consistent player base growth the last few years.

2 Likes

wait… Star Citizen is full loot!!!

If yes - Im outta here…

Yes, it’s a basic premise of the game that you can steal other players’ ships, cargo and take their gear. Looting their bodies for all the gear they are wearing is in testing right now and should be released within a month.

1 Like

Bruh you’re talking about further segmenting an already segmented community. So you want…
-Open world non full loot PvP
-Full loot PvP areas
-PvE content too.
You basically want Albion. So just go play Albion xD

2 Likes

Why would even watch a video of a dude that needs to advertise about Honey lol and shows off working out? Clearly he needs a life.

1 Like

Star Citizen, if it ever gets released, is not an MMO. It’s a single player/ multiplayer game. It’s also a kickstarter game that has been in development hell for ten years.

Star Citizen has become highly criticized during its long production process, both for the fact that there is still no clear release date and for the challenges backers who have abandoned the project have faced in receiving a refund. The launch of the game was originally anticipated for 2014, but was repeatedly delayed. In 2013, Cloud Imperium Games began releasing parts of the game, known as “modules”, to provide players with the opportunity to experience gameplay features prior to release. The latest of these modules, known as the “Persistent Universe”, was made available for testing to pre-purchasers in 2015 and continues to receive updates. No projected date for the commercial release of Star Citizen is currently given.

After the initial Kickstarter ended, Cloud Imperium Games continued to raise funds through the sale of ships and other in-game content, and is now noted for being the highest crowdfunded video game and one of the highest-funded crowdfunding projects overall, having raised over US$300 million as of June 2020. Such methods of generating crowdfunded revenue have however led to criticisms and legal issues surrounding the project. In addition to crowdfunding, marketing is now also funded through external investment, having received US$63.25 million as of March 2020.

The game’s developers have attracted criticism for continuing to raise funds enthusiastically while failing to meet project deadlines, as well as doubts about technical feasibility and the ability of the developers to finish the game.

Between September and October 2015, The Escapist magazine wrote a pair of highly controversial articles citing various sources who claimed that the project was in trouble. After Roberts wrote a scathing response to the articles, Cloud Imperium Games threatened the site and its owners with legal action which never materialized. In March 2017, Derek Smart wrote that both parties had settled the matter out of court. The statement from Defy Media reads “In response to your request for comment, I can share that CIG and The Escapist have mutually agreed to delete their comments about each other. We wish each other well and look forward to better relations in 2017”. The article later came in third (tied) for an award by the Society of Professional Journalists.[136]

In September 2016, Kotaku wrote a five-part series about the various controversies surrounding the project.One article in the series was related to a long-rumored feud between Smart and Roberts.[138] In December 2016, Star Citizen was the recipient of Wired’s 2016 Vaporware Awards. Massively OP awarded the game its “Most Likely to Flop” award for both 2016 and 2017.

So yeah. Have fun playing with vaporware.

3 Likes

I agree that full loot MMO’s won’t work anymore. However, there are combinations of open PvP and partial loot which can still work.

Take Ultima Online for example back during Age of Shadows. They had non-PvP areas for people to play, but they also had open PvP areas (no flag needed, murders allowed) with partial looting. You could insure all of your valuable items so you wouldn’t lose them, and there were also blessed key items. However, the most valuable items (power scrolls for skills+stats) dropped in PvP only areas and needed to acquired & moved to safety to sell.

Now, I’m not sure about having end-game items only accessible in PvP areas – that probably wouldn’t work today. However, you could have non-PvP zones with top tier loot which would be heavily saturated and therefore more difficult to farm, and the exact same top tier loot in open PvP black zones with murders allowed (where fewer players will venture, making farming faster with less competition).

This way any player can farm loot (slowly) from safe zones, or take the risk to farm faster from open PvP zones.

1 Like

Imagine seriously responding to someone based on some quick web searches and long quotes rather than personal knowledge. Star Citizen actually is primarily an MMO. It has some additional game modes and they are also developing a single player story game, but the main game (“persistent universe”) is absolutely an MMO. A full loot PVP MMO.

I wouldn’t quote Kotaku on the best color of panties for a man to wear, let alone what they said in September of 2016 about something being “vaporware”. They are as far from serious gaming journalists as possible.

Close to ~$400M funding says you’re off the mark here, and as far as vaporware the game is playable now and there are ongoing releases so it is pretty much the opposite of vaporware. If we are talking about what is possible and where games are heading I think Star Citizen is at the top of the list.

EVE’s crime system is a model for what could be done. The more you move toward a simulation the more things solve themselves, like in the real world. The problems with PVP are mostly related to incomplete game mechanics or poor loot/gear balance etc.

2 Likes

Yeah i want an albion like game that isnt a shit top down game that promotes ganking, so do a lot of people. Whats wrong with segmenting the server? They do that anyways with tons of stuff… crafting, pve, world pvp, instanced pvp, gathering, housing etc

2 Likes

The problem is that open world PvP inherently promotes ganking. If you want fair fights, you need structured PvP like arenas. But the full loot PvP group complain about that.

The problem is that what you want is full loot PvP with some kind of honorable solo (or fair fight) PvP system. That’s simply impossible to implement without it being broken.

If a group has 10-20 people, and then 3 people want to PvP with 3v3 fights in open PvP, how do you determine which 3 of the 10-20 people get to 3v3? You need a flagging system, which is anti-open PvP. If you auto-flag the first 3 people attacked, then the small 3 man group can focus whoever they want and largely ignore the stronger players.

What you want is paradoxical and cannot be feasibly implemented.

I’m sorry, but it’s hard to play a game that has been in development for almost ten years. And I’m not giving a company money just to test a game that may or may not be released. That’s all you are doing right now.

It’s not just that one writer. MANY people have had issues with broken promises and getting refunds. The lawsuits have been covered quite extensively.

Close to ~$400M funding says you’re off the mark here, and as far as vaporware the game is playable now and there are ongoing releases so it is pretty much the opposite of vaporware. If we are talking about what is possible and where games are heading I think Star Citizen is at the top of the list.

It’s been collecting money since it first opened for crowdfunding back nine years ago. Big deal. How much of that is left to finish the game?

And if by “playable” you mean “paying to test their game” then… yeah okay.

2 Likes

I think I’d rather stick to logic, not to a guy talking on YT, because if he would call banana a salad, would you also call it that way?

I did the enromously painful act of googling out few titles and:

UO - 17k peak this year on official servers, not sure if I can count some statistics from internet though. Private servers which are pearls actually, have probably the same(checked few first on list and they had 1k+ players) keep in mind that there are servers that aren’t getting listed because they don’t know about it, don’t want to, don’t show online etc.

Day-z - Which even isn’t an mmo 34k just on steam. There are plenty of games like Day-z by the way

Conan - Has 6k only on steam

Even tibia is above 15k and I named just few titles.

As to financials…I don’t wanna get through all of them so I’ve checked Grinding Gear Games(Path of Exile) financial report. $108m just on selling skins and merch for year 2020…

Now I don’t want to pull out some serious heresy out here, but perhaps people should actually do more research before doing YT videos telling how niche is the population and incomes, when they probably even didn’t touch the games, they just googled it and did it wrong?

I was there with full loot games, I still do play them. Fun fact - They work for both PVE and PVP, they are not dead. What makes these games still playable? Many things, and I really mean it. You need to make your game attractive so that those typical crybabies that have a problem because there is no minimap and they get lost, or game doesn’t play for them and they need to do something, can reconsider their behaviour and come back. This is how games worked back in the day, you were literally smashed either by too hard riddles, too much skill required to do something, or players. But people still did play these games because they liked lots of elements in them. Saying that one feature kills the game, is literally saying the game is bad in general, because you can’t stick to anything else.

Going back to main arguments - Low player populations? Sure, I threw only few ones and summing them up you would get 100k total pop and not even from all servers, because there is also a big difference between official servers, which very often are fked up by team creating them wink and private servers, developed by people that don’t count on money but fun - And these are way better. It could be more, Imagine if only a good 3d, well visually made game, with good sounds, systems, engaging pvp, demanding pve and way more systems would be out there…would one system kill the game? I don’t think so.

Why people still bring arguments how full loot is a bad thing while I saw literally no one ever saying that he wants to turn NW to full loot ? I don’t know, but there is a term called attention wh…

Anyway, personally I think that NW Will never be a full loot because A) Team lacks balls to do that and B) They lack skill to do that.

Full loot game will die for sure if you won’t make a game designed to that feature, which means literally reshaping all systems we got currently in game. Economy, Combat system, PVE, even things like picking up items, item obscuring by objects/players etc… everything would have to be changed, to be functional. No one will do that.

What I would like to see is the full loot zones or rare material drop as high risk high reward things like in Alpha end game over 3 years ago was better than this - But reshaped. I believe, and I think I can put my faith in people here, that whenever someone said he wants full loot, he meant a system like mentioned in the post. Not global game change to be always marked on full loot.

2 Likes

I know I sound like a broken record, but one thing I do like about Albion Online is how Yellow zone PvP works. Unless you are faction flagged in a yellow zone, if you are PvP flagged when you die to another player rather than dropping all your loot, you’ll just drop a percentage of the resources you have on hand. This is a much more balanced form of Loot PvP imo. And could actually make open world PvP nominally more worth doing in NW.