See I see the pvp mmo’s as the boomers, the last of a slow to die era.
If not then we’d be all moving to that style of gameplay, but we’re not, quite the opposite.
so no, not /thread
2 Likes
did you hear that from some guy on the internet? Or god forbid - you are that guy!?!
Lol @ “Eve and Albion are doing great” - sure, depending on metric you use. By the “big” MMO standards they are doing pretty terrible.
PVP MMOs will always be niche, regardless of who makes them because you cannot force someone
to be your entertainment. Averahe player needs to win something 75% of encounters not to feel hopeless, this is possible against computer but not possible against other humans for everyone invovled.
UO existed because back then there was no choice - you have tons of choice now.
Your analogy with EVs is deeply flawed, because it wasn’t “big evil corporations” that prevented EVs from proliferating, it was luck of range. EVs were actually widely used in various applications where range is not an issue (marshalling, airport vehicles etc) and in fact the only segment where they were not popular was consumer vehicles. As soon as tech allowed for better range they caught on.
1 Like
Tell it to all the kids who play Fortnite, Apex, and Warzone - full loot PVP is very popular, perhaps the most popular type of gameplay of any. They just haven’t been given the opportunity to see it in a good AAA MMO, and in fact it is most likely because of aging players like the WoW playerbase - the “boomers” (gen X and older Millennials most likely - boomers don’t play games). Full loot doesn’t have to be hard on low skill casuals, it could have counterbalances built in like EVE and other games have had. Who that kind of gameplay is hard on is the fragile players who are easily frustrated probably IRL as well as in video games. So MMOs have been their “safe space” if you will away from the millions of “angry” “kids” who play the full loot PVP games.
One of the most funded games to date, perhaps the most funded, is a full loot PVP MMO. Star Citizen. It follows in the EVE tradition but takes it to the next level.
3 Likes
Albion online, Eve Online doing just fine with a consistent player base growth the last few years.
2 Likes
wait… Star Citizen is full loot!!!
If yes - Im outta here…
Yes, it’s a basic premise of the game that you can steal other players’ ships, cargo and take their gear. Looting their bodies for all the gear they are wearing is in testing right now and should be released within a month.
1 Like
Bruh you’re talking about further segmenting an already segmented community. So you want…
-Open world non full loot PvP
-Full loot PvP areas
-PvE content too.
You basically want Albion. So just go play Albion xD
2 Likes
Why would even watch a video of a dude that needs to advertise about Honey lol and shows off working out? Clearly he needs a life.
1 Like
Star Citizen, if it ever gets released, is not an MMO. It’s a single player/ multiplayer game. It’s also a kickstarter game that has been in development hell for ten years.
Star Citizen has become highly criticized during its long production process, both for the fact that there is still no clear release date and for the challenges backers who have abandoned the project have faced in receiving a refund. The launch of the game was originally anticipated for 2014, but was repeatedly delayed. In 2013, Cloud Imperium Games began releasing parts of the game, known as “modules”, to provide players with the opportunity to experience gameplay features prior to release. The latest of these modules, known as the “Persistent Universe”, was made available for testing to pre-purchasers in 2015 and continues to receive updates. No projected date for the commercial release of Star Citizen is currently given.
After the initial Kickstarter ended, Cloud Imperium Games continued to raise funds through the sale of ships and other in-game content, and is now noted for being the highest crowdfunded video game and one of the highest-funded crowdfunding projects overall, having raised over US$300 million as of June 2020. Such methods of generating crowdfunded revenue have however led to criticisms and legal issues surrounding the project. In addition to crowdfunding, marketing is now also funded through external investment, having received US$63.25 million as of March 2020.
The game’s developers have attracted criticism for continuing to raise funds enthusiastically while failing to meet project deadlines, as well as doubts about technical feasibility and the ability of the developers to finish the game.
Between September and October 2015, The Escapist magazine wrote a pair of highly controversial articles citing various sources who claimed that the project was in trouble. After Roberts wrote a scathing response to the articles, Cloud Imperium Games threatened the site and its owners with legal action which never materialized. In March 2017, Derek Smart wrote that both parties had settled the matter out of court. The statement from Defy Media reads “In response to your request for comment, I can share that CIG and The Escapist have mutually agreed to delete their comments about each other. We wish each other well and look forward to better relations in 2017”. The article later came in third (tied) for an award by the Society of Professional Journalists.[136]
In September 2016, Kotaku wrote a five-part series about the various controversies surrounding the project.One article in the series was related to a long-rumored feud between Smart and Roberts.[138] In December 2016, Star Citizen was the recipient of Wired’s 2016 Vaporware Awards. Massively OP awarded the game its “Most Likely to Flop” award for both 2016 and 2017.
So yeah. Have fun playing with vaporware.
3 Likes
I agree that full loot MMO’s won’t work anymore. However, there are combinations of open PvP and partial loot which can still work.
Take Ultima Online for example back during Age of Shadows. They had non-PvP areas for people to play, but they also had open PvP areas (no flag needed, murders allowed) with partial looting. You could insure all of your valuable items so you wouldn’t lose them, and there were also blessed key items. However, the most valuable items (power scrolls for skills+stats) dropped in PvP only areas and needed to acquired & moved to safety to sell.
Now, I’m not sure about having end-game items only accessible in PvP areas – that probably wouldn’t work today. However, you could have non-PvP zones with top tier loot which would be heavily saturated and therefore more difficult to farm, and the exact same top tier loot in open PvP black zones with murders allowed (where fewer players will venture, making farming faster with less competition).
This way any player can farm loot (slowly) from safe zones, or take the risk to farm faster from open PvP zones.
1 Like
Imagine seriously responding to someone based on some quick web searches and long quotes rather than personal knowledge. Star Citizen actually is primarily an MMO. It has some additional game modes and they are also developing a single player story game, but the main game (“persistent universe”) is absolutely an MMO. A full loot PVP MMO.
I wouldn’t quote Kotaku on the best color of panties for a man to wear, let alone what they said in September of 2016 about something being “vaporware”. They are as far from serious gaming journalists as possible.
Close to ~$400M funding says you’re off the mark here, and as far as vaporware the game is playable now and there are ongoing releases so it is pretty much the opposite of vaporware. If we are talking about what is possible and where games are heading I think Star Citizen is at the top of the list.
EVE’s crime system is a model for what could be done. The more you move toward a simulation the more things solve themselves, like in the real world. The problems with PVP are mostly related to incomplete game mechanics or poor loot/gear balance etc.
2 Likes
Yeah i want an albion like game that isnt a shit top down game that promotes ganking, so do a lot of people. Whats wrong with segmenting the server? They do that anyways with tons of stuff… crafting, pve, world pvp, instanced pvp, gathering, housing etc
2 Likes
The problem is that open world PvP inherently promotes ganking. If you want fair fights, you need structured PvP like arenas. But the full loot PvP group complain about that.
The problem is that what you want is full loot PvP with some kind of honorable solo (or fair fight) PvP system. That’s simply impossible to implement without it being broken.
If a group has 10-20 people, and then 3 people want to PvP with 3v3 fights in open PvP, how do you determine which 3 of the 10-20 people get to 3v3? You need a flagging system, which is anti-open PvP. If you auto-flag the first 3 people attacked, then the small 3 man group can focus whoever they want and largely ignore the stronger players.
What you want is paradoxical and cannot be feasibly implemented.
I’m sorry, but it’s hard to play a game that has been in development for almost ten years. And I’m not giving a company money just to test a game that may or may not be released. That’s all you are doing right now.
It’s not just that one writer. MANY people have had issues with broken promises and getting refunds. The lawsuits have been covered quite extensively.
Close to ~$400M funding says you’re off the mark here, and as far as vaporware the game is playable now and there are ongoing releases so it is pretty much the opposite of vaporware. If we are talking about what is possible and where games are heading I think Star Citizen is at the top of the list.
It’s been collecting money since it first opened for crowdfunding back nine years ago. Big deal. How much of that is left to finish the game?
And if by “playable” you mean “paying to test their game” then… yeah okay.
2 Likes
I think I’d rather stick to logic, not to a guy talking on YT, because if he would call banana a salad, would you also call it that way?
I did the enromously painful act of googling out few titles and:
UO - 17k peak this year on official servers, not sure if I can count some statistics from internet though. Private servers which are pearls actually, have probably the same(checked few first on list and they had 1k+ players) keep in mind that there are servers that aren’t getting listed because they don’t know about it, don’t want to, don’t show online etc.
Day-z - Which even isn’t an mmo 34k just on steam. There are plenty of games like Day-z by the way
Conan - Has 6k only on steam
Even tibia is above 15k and I named just few titles.
As to financials…I don’t wanna get through all of them so I’ve checked Grinding Gear Games(Path of Exile) financial report. $108m just on selling skins and merch for year 2020…
Now I don’t want to pull out some serious heresy out here, but perhaps people should actually do more research before doing YT videos telling how niche is the population and incomes, when they probably even didn’t touch the games, they just googled it and did it wrong?
I was there with full loot games, I still do play them. Fun fact - They work for both PVE and PVP, they are not dead. What makes these games still playable? Many things, and I really mean it. You need to make your game attractive so that those typical crybabies that have a problem because there is no minimap and they get lost, or game doesn’t play for them and they need to do something, can reconsider their behaviour and come back. This is how games worked back in the day, you were literally smashed either by too hard riddles, too much skill required to do something, or players. But people still did play these games because they liked lots of elements in them. Saying that one feature kills the game, is literally saying the game is bad in general, because you can’t stick to anything else.
Going back to main arguments - Low player populations? Sure, I threw only few ones and summing them up you would get 100k total pop and not even from all servers, because there is also a big difference between official servers, which very often are fked up by team creating them wink and private servers, developed by people that don’t count on money but fun - And these are way better. It could be more, Imagine if only a good 3d, well visually made game, with good sounds, systems, engaging pvp, demanding pve and way more systems would be out there…would one system kill the game? I don’t think so.
Why people still bring arguments how full loot is a bad thing while I saw literally no one ever saying that he wants to turn NW to full loot ? I don’t know, but there is a term called attention wh…
Anyway, personally I think that NW Will never be a full loot because A) Team lacks balls to do that and B) They lack skill to do that.
Full loot game will die for sure if you won’t make a game designed to that feature, which means literally reshaping all systems we got currently in game. Economy, Combat system, PVE, even things like picking up items, item obscuring by objects/players etc… everything would have to be changed, to be functional. No one will do that.
What I would like to see is the full loot zones or rare material drop as high risk high reward things like in Alpha end game over 3 years ago was better than this - But reshaped. I believe, and I think I can put my faith in people here, that whenever someone said he wants full loot, he meant a system like mentioned in the post. Not global game change to be always marked on full loot.
2 Likes
I know I sound like a broken record, but one thing I do like about Albion Online is how Yellow zone PvP works. Unless you are faction flagged in a yellow zone, if you are PvP flagged when you die to another player rather than dropping all your loot, you’ll just drop a percentage of the resources you have on hand. This is a much more balanced form of Loot PvP imo. And could actually make open world PvP nominally more worth doing in NW.
Literally untrue, it can be completely fair, i explained how and even if you dont wanna do what i said, you could copy albions hellgates, different gates spawn around the map, some are 1v1, 2v2, 5v5 etc. You go into them and go against random players, its a small instanced area with a few mobs 2 bosses that drop decent loot and a chest that drops decent loot i think. You pretty much inevitably fight the other team and they drop like half their loot and the other half gets destroyed randomly for a nice gold sink so gear isnt constantly being made and looted and never destroyed. The way they do it is far, and gets rid of ganking. I forgot how they made it so people couldnt que snipe eachother and just farm the bosses for loot and not kill eachother but even if that was a problem you could just take out the bosses and loot and only the winning team in pvp would get the loot. Its a system that works and would fit in the game easily, if people dont like that content, dont do it, doesn’t affect you.
Secondly the other main thing i want is arena pvp so when you say people want one or the other thats a lie, both are small instanced areas that can be easily added to the game and would be play driven endless endgame content.
1 Like
They don’t fail or die they get niche communities that stick with them, but the downside is it does affect growth or trying to appeal to a wider audience usually. In an age with pvp games everywhere though I’d struggle to understand why so many think it’d fail.